Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?

[Ingomike]

Says the guy who wants to tell people what they can and cannot do.

I want an agreement there is a difference but apparently many cannot see the difference.

 

[Ingomike]

Covenants keep growing because there’s no shortage of other people’s business board members like to stick their noses in.

Wrong. There is no shortage of people that don’t maintain their property, create nuisances, and generally hurt their neighbors values. If you don’t want that no one makes you join an HOA…

 

[Ingomike]

I'm not certain what the difference between a 501c and a 501c4 is, but my understanding is that non-profit pays its higher ups and organizers. Think president, vice president, ceo, cfo etc. Most of them take a rather sizeable salary, but I believe they get paid as independent contractors or something of the ilk. March of dimes pays close to 100k. It's been to long for the specifics, but I'm sure I could google it quickly enough if it becomes necessary. Non-profit and the 501 designation seems like it should be like most of the others in the category. Yes, it's scummy, but not illegal or even in the grey area. A quick googling tells me this isn't quite right though and can be quite complex. The expectation is to do it as a volunteer, but it isn't quite that straightforward. You can also be a board member and have a lawn care service and make money in that way, although this is dubiously legal. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to game the system, I just don't care for lawfare and tend to avoid all undue bureaucracy.

IRC Section 501(c)(4): Homeowners’ associations | Internal Revenue Service

Like any Section 501(c)(4) social welfare organization, a homeowners’ association described under Section 501(c)(4) is required to be operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare by primarily promoting the common good and general welfare of the people of the community. Homeowners...

www.irs.gov

 

[Ingomike]

But, do some of them require members to use specific services in maintenance of their homes, for which board members get kickbacks?

I have never ran into this. Most are required to get three competitive bids for any work over a certain amount.

 

[Ingomike]

Man Battles His HOA for 7 Years Over a $500 Mailbox—and Wins

Imagine being forced to buy a $500 mailbox. That's what happened to a Maryland man who took his homeowners association to court and won.

www.realtor.com

Only took 7 years and how much money?

“Recipe for fraud”: The alleged scam that rocked South Florida's biggest HOA

As investigators untangle a web of alleged financial deceit at the Hammocks, charges against ex-board show state oversight on HOAs is lacking.

therealdeal.com

More HOA fraud.
I can continue all day but it's not worth the time as there are so many horror stories about these.

Homeowners’ Association Horror Stories

Homeowners' Associations can be helpful, or prone to abuse and weird dynamics. Here's a roundup of HOAs run wild.

www.familyhandyman.com

One can find horror stories on any type of organization ran by people, doesn’t mean all or even most are bad.

 

[firecadet613]

One can find horror stories on any type of organization ran by people, doesn’t mean all or even most are bad.

Just think what those that have been shootered have to say about INGO...

 

[Ingomike]

Nope, you sell it your done with it



You want to control what goes on, you build the house and rent it out or stfu
If your selling half a million dollar houses the people that can afford to buy one are going to take care of it, and if not they spent THEIR half million $ NOT YOUR'S

Absolutely. again you sell it your say so is gone
The county has regulations on how much land you need for livestock

If I sold you a classic car do I get to tell you when to drive it? what gas to put in it? what tires to put on it?
If I sell you a pistol do I get to tell you what holster to carry it in? what brand of ammo to shoot through it?
and don't say apples to oranges, cause if I'm buying a house or a pistol I paid for it its mine and your say so ends when you take MY money

That is not the law and why would you want to take property owners rights to sell the way they want to sell their property? Property owners have every right to sell their property the way they wish. They can sell just mineral rights, air rights, heck I’m sure there is a way to sell land and retain hunting rights.

There is very little limit to contract law. I see no limit that you and I can sign a contract that if I sell you a pistol that you only use certain ammo and carry in a certain holster if we, as consenting adults agree and sign a legal binding contract. What exactly do you think would make this illegal? It would certainly be unusual but not illegal.

It is interesting that there is so much worry about the buyers freedom but almost none for the freedom of the seller to sell the way they wish. Both buyers and sellers have the freedom to buy and sell property under the conditions they agree to.

In the case of subdivisions with covenants and HOA’s created by those covenants the sellers will only agree to sell to a buyer that also agrees to accept the covenants and HOA. No one is being forced to buy there, and if enough people don’t buy the sellers will be forced to adapt to sell but that is not the case in the real world.

 

[repeter1977]

Man Battles His HOA for 7 Years Over a $500 Mailbox—and Wins

Imagine being forced to buy a $500 mailbox. That's what happened to a Maryland man who took his homeowners association to court and won.

www.realtor.com

Only took 7 years and how much money?

“Recipe for fraud”: The alleged scam that rocked South Florida's biggest HOA

As investigators untangle a web of alleged financial deceit at the Hammocks, charges against ex-board show state oversight on HOAs is lacking.

therealdeal.com

More HOA fraud.
I can continue all day but it's not worth the time as there are so many horror stories about these.

Homeowners’ Association Horror Stories

Homeowners' Associations can be helpful, or prone to abuse and weird dynamics. Here's a roundup of HOAs run wild.

www.familyhandyman.com

Please provide evidence of this please. Otherwise it is just another internet tale…

Here you go. Already done. See. I'm willing to provide sources.

 

[repeter1977]

One can find horror stories on any type of organization ran by people, doesn’t mean all or even most are bad.

Way less in every other organization.
HOAs are completely unnecessary.

 

[jamil]

One can find horror stories on any type of organization ran by people, doesn’t mean all or even most are bad.

Problem is, HOA's tend to attract Karens (female or male), because it's a way to satisfy their nosy, toxic, snooty, controlling personalities. Multiply all such neighbors you've ever had. That's who tends to gravitate towards HOA boards. They should rename it as BOC. Board of ****s.

THAT's why everyone hates HOA's. If you don't like your neighbors to have pets over a certain size, approach your local government and petition them to make an ordinance. Otherwise, STFU. HOA's are unnecessary.

 

[firecadet613]

Problem is, HOA's tend to attract Karens (female or male), because it's a way to satisfy their nosy, toxic, snooty, controlling personalities. Multiply all such neighbors you've ever had. That's who tends to gravitate towards HOA boards. They should rename it as BOC. Board of ****s.

THAT's why everyone hates HOA's. If you don't like your neighbors to have pets over a certain size, approach your local government and petition them to make an ordinance. Otherwise, STFU. HOA's are unnecessary.

Have you personally experienced that? My experience is you can't find people to be on the board (I sure as hell wouldn't be) and board members did NOT drive around looking for people breaking covenants (the mgmt company sent someone out about once a month).

Way less in every other organization.
HOAs are completely unnecessary.

Good thing NO ONE is forced to join one. But I'd still encourage you to live on a 0.20ac lot without one...


I'm not a realtor, but I can tell you some of the most sought after neighborhoods in the Indy area have HOAs. Do the masses know something INGO members don't?

 

[jamil]

Have you personally experienced that?

Yes. I was on an HOA board, I think it was probably ~1990ish. My purpose was to vote no on all the stupid Karen **** they wanted to control and convince as many board members as possible to vote against. I just wish we had the name "Karen" for nosy controlling people then.

My experience is you can't find people to be on the board (I sure as hell wouldn't be) and board members did NOT drive around looking for people breaking covenants (the mgmt company sent someone out about once a month).

If an HOA can't find enough people to be on the board, it may be because you have decent neighbors who live and let live. Or, maybe it's a rare board that hasn't pulled any stupid ********, so the non-conformists in the neighborhood aren't compelled to get on the board.

Good thing NO ONE is forced to join one. But I'd still encourage you to live on a 0.20ac lot without one...

I've lived on a small lot in neighborhoods without an HOA. The blades of grass on a given lawn may not have all been the exact height as everyone else's, but all and all, property values didn't suffer for it. There were already local ordinances against the usual stuff. No cars on blocks. No fences above a certain height. Etcetera.

If you don't like it, petition for an ordiance or stfu. But, if you petition for it, people get to argue to defend against your controlling whims. You live in a neighborhood with an HOA, they get to impose all kinds of nonsense. HOA's are an unnecessary Karen magnet.

 

[jamil]

That is not the law and why would you want to take property owners rights to sell the way they want to sell their property? Property owners have every right to sell their property the way they wish. They can sell just mineral rights, air rights, heck I’m sure there is a way to sell land and retain hunting rights.

There is very little limit to contract law. I see no limit that you and I can sign a contract that if I sell you a pistol that you only use certain ammo and carry in a certain holster if we, as consenting adults agree and sign a legal binding contract. What exactly do you think would make this illegal? It would certainly be unusual but not illegal.

It is interesting that there is so much worry about the buyers freedom but almost none for the freedom of the seller to sell the way they wish. Both buyers and sellers have the freedom to buy and sell property under the conditions they agree to.

In the case of subdivisions with covenants and HOA’s created by those covenants the sellers will only agree to sell to a buyer that also agrees to accept the covenants and HOA. No one is being forced to buy there, and if enough people don’t buy the sellers will be forced to adapt to sell but that is not the case in the real world.

I think there should be some limits to contracts, for example, in an obvious Hobson's choice situation.

 

[phylodog]

It is interesting that there is so much worry about the buyers freedom but almost none for the freedom of the seller to sell the way they wish. Both buyers and sellers have the freedom to buy and sell property under the conditions they agree to.

You believe Americans can own property when the reality is that we cannot, not on U.S. soil anyway.

You also believe someone should maintain rights of ownership after they no longer own something. I agree with you that if I want to sell five acres of my land to someone we should be legally allowed to sign whatever agreement the parties wish. Where we differ is that once someone buys something, you believe the previous owner should be allowed some control over that property.

You also keep harping that its a choice when for most, if actually given that choice they would choose not to have an HOA. Everyone knows this so rather than selling all of the homes in a new subdivision then forming an HOA that the actual owners can vote on, they form what they want before hand and it becomes a take it or leave it affair. That isn't the freedom to choose and we all know why it doesn't happen like that.

 

[jamil]

Okay, I'll just say this. Living in a densely populated neighborhood is different from living out in the wilderness. People are diverse. The impact of a neighborhood's heterogeneity (I'm saying that rather than diversity, because that word has been hijacked) is greater with a neighborhood's density. If it's a homogeneous neighborhood, everyone would get along because everyone has the same likes/dislikes. People would just agree on what the rules are without having to have rules. Denser populations simply aren't homogeneous though.

The denser the neighborhood the more heterogeneity matters. You need some rules and enforcement. My position isn't that those rules are unnecessary. My position is that an HOA is not an ideal way achieve it. Private government is not the answer to quarreling neighbors over grass height.

Public Government with accountability, oversight, and all the other checks and balances is not ideal but is a better solution to having essentially private government, which is essentially what HOA's are.

People like Mike can say, well you signed up for it when you agreed to moving in a neighborhood with an HOA. While true, it's a copout answer to "**** HOA's" because it is not a counter-argument that addresses the problems people have with HOA's. It does not prove HOA's necessity. So. **** HOA's, and **** all the Karens who run them.

​

 

[repeter1977]

Problem is, HOA's tend to attract Karens (female or male), because it's a way to satisfy their nosy, toxic, snooty, controlling personalities. Multiply all such neighbors you've ever had. That's who tends to gravitate towards HOA boards. They should rename it as BOC. Board of ****s.

THAT's why everyone hates HOA's. If you don't like your neighbors to have pets over a certain size, approach your local government and petition them to make an ordinance. Otherwise, STFU. HOA's are unnecessary.

Exactly

 

[repeter1977]

Have you personally experienced that? My experience is you can't find people to be on the board (I sure as hell wouldn't be) and board members did NOT drive around looking for people breaking covenants (the mgmt company sent someone out about once a month).


Good thing NO ONE is forced to join one. But I'd still encourage you to live on a 0.20ac lot without one...


I'm not a realtor, but I can tell you some of the most sought after neighborhoods in the Indy area have HOAs. Do the masses know something INGO members don't?

Except some places force you to join before moving in. Avoid like the plague.
Well, slavery also used to be acceptable to the masses, maybe they knew something INGOers didn't.
Or maybe INGOers understand freedom is better, freedom from slavery and HOAs. Too many others haven't studied history enough to realize there is a reason to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. After all, look at all the gun control supported in Chicago. Using your logic, maybe they know something we don't. Or maybe we know something they don't. I'll go with gun control bad because it limits freedom.

 

[Creedmoor]

Okay, I'll just say this. Living in a densely populated neighborhood is different from living out in the wilderness. People are diverse. The impact of a neighborhood's heterogeneity (I'm saying that rather than diversity, because that word has been hijacked) is greater with a neighborhood's density. If it's a homogeneous neighborhood, everyone would get along because everyone has the same likes/dislikes. People would just agree on what the rules are without having to have rules. That's not reality.

The denser the neighborhood the more heterogeneity matters. You need some rules and enforcement. My position isn't that those rules are unnecessary. My position is that an HOA is not an ideal way achieve it. Private government is not the answer to quarreling neighbors over grass height.

Public Government with accountability, oversight, and all the other checks and balances is not ideal but is a better solution to having essentially private government with HOA's.

People like Mike can say, well you signed up for it when you agreed to moving in a neighborhood with an HOA. While true, it's a copout answer to "**** HOA's" because it is not a counter-argument that addresses the problems people have with HOA's. It does not prove HOA's necessity. So. **** HOA's, and **** all the Karens who run them.

​

I'm not sure a Public Government will do the job in a timely fashion like most HOA's do. I have a neighbor across the street from a home I own, who has not yet mowed his lawn this year. All of the neighbors have all called the city more than once, and the city government has yet to do anything.
Now with full disclosure I will say that I have mowed it twice, I'm not doing it anymore. He works three 12 hr days and sits in his house the rest of the time.
Hes just that lazy.

 

[phylodog]

I bet if enough trash showed up in his yard the city would be a little quicker to respond. After that, he can either mow regularly or pick trash, then mow regularly. People like that are frustrating, sometimes the only thing that works is to frustrate them back, hypothetically of course.

 

[jamil]

Except some places force you to join before moving in. Avoid like the plague.
Well, slavery also used to be acceptable to the masses, maybe they knew something INGOers didn't.
Or maybe INGOers understand freedom is better, freedom from slavery and HOAs. Too many others haven't studied history enough to realize there is a reason to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. After all, look at all the gun control supported in Chicago. Using your logic, maybe they know something we don't. Or maybe we know something they don't. I'll go with gun control bad because it limits freedom.

A problem with joining a neighborhood with HOA's is that when you move in, things seem sane. The composition of boards change. And when Karens become HOA presidents, **** gets real pretty quick. You might be fine with the idea of HOA's. Everything is fine for a few years. Then you start getting nasty-grams because of some nit-picky **** someone found in the covenants to harass you with. Because they can.

And there's not a lot you can do about it. You can sue the board. But the covenants usually has language requiring disputes go to arbitration. Which usually sides with the institution over individuals, right or wrong. It's why institutions prefer arbitration, not just because arbitration is cheaper than a court fight. They have a better chance of getting a favorable decision with arbitration than with juries.