Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?

[jamil]

If HOAs were of more benefit to all than reward to the entitled they could and would be organized by the actual owners of the property and not the previous owner.

In fairness, it would be hard to establish an HOA in a neighborhood that never had one. Bylaws and dues would only be enforceable on people who signed on to it. It's not like 50%+1 can vote to join an HOA and then enforce the rules on the whole neighborhood.

For new HOA's, I'm not sure what reward there is, or who the entitled are. Developers buy some land to develop. If you buy a lot you have to agree to the contract. At some point the HOA board will form, usually after so many lots are conveyed. Who is being rewarded other than Karens who orgasm over controlling other people?

You pay dues which pays for common area maintenance, street lights (if the local government doesn't pay for them). Snow removal. Sewage, if there's a common septic. Stuff like that. No one's getting rich unless they're abusing their power. I'd prefer not giving people power to abuse, especially when you're talking about establishing essentially a private government.

 

[Creedmoor]

If HOAs were of more benefit to all than reward to the entitled they could and would be organized by the actual owners of the property and not the previous owner.

But with doing it that way one doesn't have the captive audience when selling said property.

I see pros and cons with them..
Where my mother and sfather lived for over 30 years had a great HOA. I want to say it was a few hundred a year, they sold about 12 years ago.
One needs an HOA with thinks like, a horse barn and trails, a few community piers, playgrounds and a swimming pool to maintain.
One had to pay extra to have a boat slip,use the pool and stall rent if you had a horse.

How does a community have these things without a worthy HOA?

 

[jamil]

The reason there is hate for HOA's is because so many people have bad experiences with them. If they didn't, HOA's wouldn't have earned so much hate. Of course Mike and others seem to think the hate isn't earned. And that HOA's should be able to do anything as long as it's in a contract. If the results are that the HOA goes way beyond the reasonable, it's a nuisance.

 

[jkaetz]

I've somewhat followed along out of boredom, no dog in the fight whatsoever, but really can't tell what the point is of the whole discussion. Nobody's changing their minds. 23 pages. Certainly all this energy could've been directed in a more positive direction...

Can't speak for others, but sometimes it's fun to have a healthy debate and see other perspectives. No attempt to change minds here and not looking to have my mind changed.

Yep, but I'll take my 252% over 90% any day.

Looking at the values out here in the sticks, they didn't increase as quickly as the highly sought after HOA properties...

In your example you pointed out 10ac lots, that's a far cry from the typical suburban HOA lot of .25ac (I'm throwing out Creedmoor's atypical example)...

If HOAs are so bad, why are homes in HOA neighborhoods selling the instant they are listed, whereas homes just a neighborhood over in a non HOA neighborhood take time to sell? It seems to be the opposite of what most in this thread believe...

This is a classic correlation does not equal causation. There are far more variables that figure into a home's price than HOA or no HOA. This is even more true when the vast majority of homes on the market are in an HOA making it very difficult to get a true read on if the HOA is providing the value or something else.

I don’t watch videos for anyone, not my thing. My answer is the truth, don’t need a video. Not angry at anything. Not trying to change any minds, just get people to understand what they are and how they come to be. Many seem to think they just appear out of thin air to dictate to people.

My hope is people are more aware and make proper choices for themselves instead of blindly buying in a neighborhood with an HOA expecting the neighborhood to adapt to them.

Thanks for offering the perspective, but no one asked why people liked HOAs, you asked why INGO doesn't like them.

Oh, I also find it funny that folks out in the sticks of Indiana that have no dog in the fight are so impassioned by the choices of city and suburban folks.

This is also a humorous statement as you yourself have exited HOA managed properties yet you want to tell us how great they are.

Why would you live in a place governed by a HOA if you're so against them?!

The safety it provided my investment afforded me the freedom to be not only mortgage free, but debt free, before I'm 40...

Compromise. Life is full of them. Ever go used car shopping? Sometimes you can't find exactly what you want so you take some unwanted things along with the desired things.

There are a lot of options in Indy that do not have covenants and an HOA, why didn’t you buy in one of those?

This simply isn't true and you know it. Opting out of an HOA severely limits your housing options.

Does this mean that no property owner has the right restrict what goes on with property they sell? This has been an option for land owners for a long time. If you spent millions of your money to develop a subdivision and were selling half million dollar homes you would not protect your investment against those that could cause you to lose millions? You think it wrong for that farmer that will not allow livestock on the land he sells.

While multi billion dollar companies and others are trying to make this the norm, that doesn't make it right. You don't get to sell a thing (car, phone, land, home, appliance) and then tell someone what they can do with it.

For those that say No HOAs, how do you handle common area maintenance (mowing green space), trail maintenance, pool maintenance (and paying a life guard), bathhouse maintenance, tennis/basketball court upkeep (seems backboards and tennis court nets keep getting damaged).

This is the only thing that an HOA should be doing as it does indeed add value to a neighborhood.

 

[KellyinAvon]

No. I was there to vote against Karens on the board. I was happy to vote against the the ones who wanted to persecute a homeowner for having her fence with the "ugly" side out. There was nothing in the bylaws about it, but the Karens on the board didn't like it.

No need to gender it BTW. Karens conveys the meaning for both. Calling a dude a Karen implies some other things besides being an unhinged controlling busybody.

OK, how did the Karen in question know that was the ugly side? Was she invited in to the backyard or did she trespass? Maybe that was the pretty side and inside was horrific. Was it from Ugly Side Out Fences LLC? Did the homeowner use a slightly darker stain to write "Helter Skelter" on the outside of the fence? That would be ugly and worse than ugly, just sayin.

 

[firecadet613]

Easy solution. How are those areas handled in no HOAs? Because plenty of parks and playgrounds not in HOAs, so how do they do it?

You must be speaking of existing neighborhoods with city owned amenities and city owned land.

I'm discussing newer, planned subdivisions and how they do things. You know, places with an HOA. So I'll ask again, how do they do it without a HOA? (my question, and you even liked Jamil's post about it)

In fairness, it would be hard to establish an HOA in a neighborhood that never had one. Bylaws and dues would only be enforceable on people who signed on to it. It's not like 50%+1 can vote to join an HOA and then enforce the rules on the whole neighborhood.

For new HOA's, I'm not sure what reward there is, or who the entitled are. Developers buy some land to develop. If you buy a lot you have to agree to the contract. At some point the HOA board will form, usually after so many lots are conveyed. Who is being rewarded other than Karens who orgasm over controlling other people?

You pay dues which pays for common area maintenance, street lights (if the local government doesn't pay for them). Snow removal. Sewage, if there's a common septic. Stuff like that. No one's getting rich unless they're abusing their power. I'd prefer not giving people power to abuse, especially when you're talking about establishing essentially a private government.

@repeter1977 this is the post you liked and what I'm speaking of. How do you do that with no HOA?

But with doing it that way one doesn't have the captive audience when selling said property.

I see pros and cons with them..
Where my mother and sfather lived for over 30 years had a great HOA. I want to say it was a few hundred a year, they sold about 12 years ago.
One needs an HOA with thinks like, a horse barn and trails, a few community piers, playgrounds and a swimming pool to maintain.
One had to pay extra to have a boat slip,use the pool and stall rent if you had a horse.

How does a community have these things without a worthy HOA?

Exactly this and the question I asked this morning... I'm still waiting for the anti crowd to give a viable answer....

Compromise. Life is full of them. Ever go used car shopping? Sometimes you can't find exactly what you want so you take some unwanted things along with the desired things.

I have bought used and new, it's very simple, I don't buy it. Life is short. I buy exactly what I want. I've driven to Detroit to buy my wife the exact Charger she wanted and over to Illinois to buy my current truck (and have factory ordered a few). Some may settle, I do not.

This simply isn't true and you know it. Opting out of an HOA severely limits your housing options.

See below.

While multi billion dollar companies and others are trying to make this the norm, that doesn't make it right. You don't get to sell a thing (car, phone, land, home, appliance) and then tell someone what they can do with it.

That's Real Estate Law. Don't like it, get the laws changed, or better yet read your purchase contract before you sign it.

This is the only thing that an HOA should be doing as it does indeed add value to a neighborhood.

And that's the exact neighborhood I'm speaking of. Not the old, existing subdivision in Speedway, Beach Grove, or the like. If you don't want a HOA, go there. If you want a nice, newer home and a nice neighborhood, it likely has a HOA. I wonder why it's still nice...

So again, how does a newer, plotted and planned subdivision with all the amenities exist without a HOA?

 

[jamil]

OK, how did the Karen in question know that was the ugly side? Was she invited in to the backyard or did she trespass? Maybe that was the pretty side and inside was horrific. Was it from Ugly Side Out Fences LLC? Did the homeowner use a slightly darker stain to write "Helter Skelter" on the outside of the fence? That would be ugly and worse than ugly, just sayin.

The fence was the typical 6ft privacy fence constructed of treated posts, pickets, and furring strips.

I remember "the ugly side" referred to the fact that the homeowner did not want the posts and furring strips on the inside, because she didn't want to see them when she looked out the window. Somehow it got coined as "the ugly side".

All fences had to be approved by the board, but the bylaws did not specify anything about whether the "ugly side" had to face inward. I think we had initially approved the fence, but then when built the posts and furrings were on the outside. The HOA president had a fit. Long story short my position was to drop it. Waste of time trying to figure out how to enforce something not in the bylaws. There were a lot of angry conversations between the homeowner and the HOA president, but ultimately the board was not able to force the homeowner to take down the fence.

 

[jamil]

I have and simple, I don't buy it. I buy exactly what I want. I've driven to Detroit to buy my wife the exact Charger she wanted and over to Illinois to buy my current truck (and have factory ordered a few). Some may settle, I do not.

I mean it's still a compromise. To get what you wanted you had to pay more for it. Driving all that way isn't free. Your time isn't free. There are few things in life that don't involve compromise in one way or other.

 

[firecadet613]

I mean it's still a compromise. To get what you wanted you had to pay more for it. Driving all that way isn't free. Your time isn't free. There are few things in life that don't involve compromise in one way or other.

Everything is a compromise. Working the deal via text/email takes next to no time (and who doesn't like the thrill of the hunt / making the deal). So no, I didn't pay more for it (consideably less, actually). I usually have a few dealers in play and the best one wins (even on used).

By the time I step foot at the dealership, I just take a quick test drive, sign the paperwork and I'm gone.

Regardless of what you buy, you might as well get what you want. A few hour drive is nothing (I drive 30k+ miles a year) and if a tank of gas will impact you, you likely should buy something cheaper and take what you can get vs hunting for something specific.

 

[Creedmoor]

I mean it's still a compromise. To get what you wanted you had to pay more for it. Driving all that way isn't free. Your time isn't free. There are few things in life that don't involve compromise in one way or other.

Compromising is buying a glock in 40 when you wanted a 9mm HK or a Sig Sauer.

 

[jamil]

Everything is a compromise. Working the deal via text/email takes next to no time (and who doesn't like the thrill of the hunt / making the deal). So no, I didn't pay more for it (consideably less, actually). I usually have a few dealers in play and the best one wins (even on used).

By the time I step foot at the dealership, I just take a quick test drive, sign the paperwork and I'm gone.

Regardless of what you buy, you might as well get what you want. A few hour drive is nothing (I drive 30k+ miles a year) and if a tank of gas will impact you, you likely should buy something cheaper and take what you should get vs hunting for something specific.

Wait. You first seemed to argue against "compromise" then you said "everything is a compromise", and then seemed to argue against it. Did you compromise or not? I think you did.

 

[firecadet613]

Wait. You first seemed to argue against "compromise" then you said "everything is a compromise", and then seemed to argue against it. Did you compromise or not? I think you did.

How did I compromise on the car purchase?

Bought my current Ram in late 2022. Couldn't order a new one as I didn't want the eTorque, so I took some time finding the right used one and bought it. Got a HELL of a deal as well. Was down to one in MI and one in IL. I was up in MI visiting family and got the one in IL to drop a grand (plus it was a nicer truck with Ramboxes and the body color bumper package).

I guess that's a compromise? I guess I paid more as I drive a Limited vs a Big Horn and drove a Lariat, not an XL?

My previous three pickups have my name on the window sticker as I ordered them. Will you say that's a compromise of my time as I had to wait for it to be built vs take what was on the lot?

Compromising is buying a glock in 40 when you wanted a 9mm HK or a Sig Sauer.

That's just being cheap. If you want the HK or Sig and can't afford it, save up and buy it. Eat out less and eat in more.

 

[phylodog]

How does a community have these things without a worthy HOA?

If I wanted to live in a community where those things were shared I wouldn't take issue with an HOA, there is necessity there. My last home/HOA did nothing of the sort other than a pond which the lot owners paid extra to maintain since we were not allowed access. The city plowed the streets, I cut my own grass and the "maintained" neighborhood sign and waterfall worked about 75% of the time.
My half of our old neighborhood were all semi custom level homes, varying designs, no vinyl siding, etc.. Apparently before they could sell/build them all things got difficult so they changed the rules and the south end of the subdivision could all of a sudden have vinyl siding and you can bet 95% of them do. The neighborhood behind me was on a golf course and my back yard butted up against that of a home worth 3x what mine was. HOAs all around but different rules within a stone's throw, always found that interesting.

I'm all about people having the freedom to choose and in instances like you mention they should certainly have the freedom to come to collective agreements. Golf course communities, gated communities, lakefront, etc., those all present unique circumstances which are not found in your average Indiana subdivision full of 1/4 acre lots.

 

[BugI02]

Again, the most sought after neighborhoods in Indy/suburbs have HOAs.

Maybe Indy/suburbs just have a lot of masochists?

"Some of them want to use you
Some of them want to get used by you
Some of them want to abuse you
Some of them want to be abused" - Eurythmics, Sweet Dreams

 

[BugI02]

They just don't seem to understand we just cant keep writing these checks.

It doesn't seem to me that HOA love would somehow result in you writing FEWER checks YMMV

 

[jkaetz]

That's Real Estate Law. Don't like it, get the laws changed, or better yet read your purchase contract before you sign it.

Being legal doesn't make something right. No one has argued that an HOA or its covenants are illegal. Also adds to the disdain when someone can see through the BS and gets responses like this.

I believe that eventually all new remotely urban homes will be in an HOA. Why do I say this? Because the individual home buyer can't compete with multi million dollar corporations purchasing 100's of acres of farm land, subdividing it, creating an HOA that benefits them, building homes on it, and saddling the homeowners with the covenants. The only way to build new outside an HOA will be to live in "the middle of nowhere". This also poses a problem though as "the middle of nowhere" is going to shrink as well due to the forementioned corporations purchasing the farm land. Those who currently live in the middle of no where may find themselves surrounded.

 

[firecadet613]

I'm all about people having the freedom to choose and in instances like you mention they should certainly have the freedom to come to collective agreements. Golf course communities, gated communities, lakefront, etc., those all present unique circumstances which are not found in your average Indiana subdivision full of 1/4 acre lots.

I believe our definition of "average" is different. All the "average" subdivisions with 1/4 acre lots had those amenities when we were looking, I'm not sure if many newer ones don't have them. That was why I couldn't figure out how in the heck you do that without a HOA. The smaller, older subdivisions are a no brainer - they are not needed.

Being legal doesn't make something right. No one has argued that an HOA or its covenants are illegal. Also adds to the disdain when someone can see through the BS and gets responses like this.

That's not a BS response. It's the truth. Deed restricted properties are a 'thing'. Just wait until land leases hit residential like they are increasingly doing so on commercial properties (let's hope they don't).

I believe that eventually all new remotely urban homes will be in an HOA. Why do I say this? Because the individual home buyer can't compete with multi million dollar corporations purchasing 100's of acres of farm land, subdividing it, creating an HOA that benefits them, building homes on it, and saddling the homeowners with the covenants.

Very true, the average Joe can't buy a few acres from a farmer when a developer offers to buy his entire lot. Look around the donut counties of Indianapolis and I'd wager 80% or more of the new subdivisions have HOAs.

The only way to build new outside an HOA will be to live in "the middle of nowhere". This also poses a problem though as "the middle of nowhere" is going to shrink as well due to the forementioned corporations purchasing the farm land. Those who currently live in the middle of no where may find themselves surrounded.

That's correct and not exactly. We moved to the 'middle of no where'. There are too many hills, valleys, and topography issues to plop a subdivisions nearby, which is why we chose it.

Another buying in the middle of no where issue - eventually you get far enough from one major metro area, you'll start to get close to another. Finding that 'middle' area is key.

If you think Indy is building quick, check out Des Moines or Sioux Falls. It seems everyone is moving to the midwest. God help us if they vote the way they did where they previously lived.

Wait. You first seemed to argue against "compromise" then you said "everything is a compromise", and then seemed to argue against it. Did you compromise or not? I think you did.

What you call a "compromise", I call the game of life.

Funny thought popped in my head when I was thinking about my truck. I put more miles on our rental in Yellowstone (~1900mi) than I have on the truck so far this year. Gotta love having a company car and free gas. Was going to drive the truck today, but it rained. Maybe tomorrow...

 

[BugI02]

Bought my current Ram in late 2022. Couldn't order a new one as I didn't want the eTorque, so I took some time finding the right used one and bought it. Got a HELL of a deal as well. Was down to one in MI and one in IL. I was up in MI visiting family and got the one in IL to drop a grand (plus it was a nicer truck with Ramboxes and the body color bumper package).

The way you and Mike talk, it would have been perfectly fine for the previous owner of that Ram to require you to join a local Ram owners club as well as restrict your purchase such that you could never swap out or remove the ramboxes

 

[BugI02]

Compromising is buying a glock in 40 when you wanted a 9mm HK or a Sig Sauer.

That sounds more like 'settling'

 

[Brad69]

Just finished cleaning gutters, weed eating, pressure washing driveway, trimming shrubs.
This was all done without a HOA.

Dude down the hill is retired mows grass a lot takes great pride in his home. His grass looks like a golf course very nice yard.

Some people moved in next to him it appears they don’t like to mow. He mowed and trimmed their yard today hopefully they get the hint.