Hostage Shot By Police

[mrobnoxious1]

I would assist the LEO. If he were fired upon, not before.

As a LTCH holder, do I have the authority to shoot in self defense, if someone is brandishing a weapon in my direction?

My question is "did he have a duty to shoot?". If so, he did his duty.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

The witness accounts for 4 shots. Some time within that, he screamed for her and she did not answer. That leaves 4 shots unaccounted for, and no idea when they occurred.

Likely, the eye witness can't recall exactly what occurred. Because eye witness testimony is noted for being inaccurate.

I was going to point that out also, but you also missed where he stated that the officers fired two more shots, implying that both fired, when according to the other article and statements by the police only the one officer fired. That and the fact that he was hiding behind the couch. So most likely couldn't see what was actually happening before the final two shots.

'I see an officer there, with his gun out, standing by the steps. So I’m thinking, "Good, there’s a cop there,"' he told the Post.
At that point, he escaped, running and hiding behind a couch

'

I run out and I run toward where they are.'

He then saw officers fire twice more at Smith.

And I'll add in my prayers for the families involved.

 

[NOLATAC-Brannon]

The cop needs to be fired & charged.......

Why?

 

[IndyDave1776]

And had the officer left and the bad guy murdered the woman, you would still be jumping on the bandwagon of blaming the police for her death. It really is too bad armchair QBs don't get paid as highly as the real thing.

Maybe we need to eliminate police completely. They are held up as more perfect than God professionals when they are imposing themselves on the rest of us but whine when we expect competent behavior from them. My job would be easy as falling off a stump if I were given the same latitude for 'good faith effort', pity parties for the difficulties of life, and 'investigations' that die of old age without resolving anything. Frank, if you had to live like the rest of the population you might understand.

 

[Dead Duck]

Maybe we need to eliminate police completely. They are held up as more perfect than God professionals when they are imposing themselves on the rest of us but whine when we expect competent behavior from them. My job would be easy as falling off a stump if I were given the same latitude for 'good faith effort', pity parties for the difficulties of life, and 'investigations' that die of old age without resolving anything. Frank, if you had to live like the rest of the population you might understand.

Dave, if you had to live like the rest of the population, you might understand.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Maybe we need to eliminate police completely. They are held up as more perfect than God professionals when they are imposing themselves on the rest of us but whine when we expect competent behavior from them. My job would be easy as falling off a stump if I were given the same latitude for 'good faith effort', pity parties for the difficulties of life, and 'investigations' that die of old age without resolving anything. Frank, if you had to live like the rest of the population you might understand.

Thats rich. If I didn't think you were an arrogant person that I have no desire to be around I would gladly have you spend some time with me, both on-duty and off. Then you could see how I and the officers I work around really do "live like the rest of the population." We aren't perfect, we make mistakes. But the vast majority of us do what we think is right and in the best interest of the public, only to be **** on by people like you who don't do anything but sit behing a computer and MMQB every single thing we do.

 

[UncleMike]

Thats rich. If I didn't think you were an arrogant person that I have no desire to be around I would gladly have you spend some time with me, both on-duty and off. Then you could see how I and the officers I work around really do "live like the rest of the population." We aren't perfect, we make mistakes. But the vast majority of us do what we think is right and in the best interest of the public, only to be **** on by people like you who don't do anything but sit behing a computer and MMQB every single thing we do.

Yup.......
The last time I looked LEO's are part of the Population and have to live with the same bills, food prices, gas prices, TAXES, cost of schooling kids, health issues, Terrorism concerns, getting older, rude store employees, bad restaurant food, and ALL of the other that the rest of the population has to put up with.
Oh yeah.....
And they have the added perk of getting to listen to every, self righteous, uninformed, water cooler computer commando tell them how they should do their job down to the smallest detail before and AFTER events occur.

 

[PX4me]

Anyone in here calling out the cops for doing their job is an idiot. End of story.

The only person at fault in this entire scenario is the perp. Without his actions it never happens. Pretty simple to figure out, but apparently a bit too hard to grasp for the know-it-all keyboard commandos who have obviously never walked the walk, yet just love to talk the talk.

 

[brotherbill3]

after the fastest 11 page read ever, Just a thought;

Perhaps Meezer knows this was the 8th round because the officer was using a microstamp enabled gun that also imprinted the number / order the rounds fired on the case & bullet.

too much MMQB; sad situation for the families involved and the officers involved.
One I hope no officers or any of us ever find ourselves in.

 

[freekforge]

So if someone shot at you, you'd suck it up for the hostages good?

Thats kind of the point of being a peace officer putting your life on the line for the good of others and if need be sacraficing your life

 

[IndyDave1776]

.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Anyone in here calling out the cops for doing their job is an idiot. End of story.

The only person at fault in this entire scenario is the perp. Without his actions it never happens. Pretty simple to figure out, but apparently a bit too hard to grasp for the know-it-all keyboard commandos who have obviously never walked the walk, yet just love to talk the talk.

What is being called out is that when the police get trigger-happy and careless, it is a 'good faith effort'. If anyone else were to do likewise, it is recklessness/negligence and subject to criminal charges. Never mind that the enforcers of the law should set the standards, not be exempted from them.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

Thats rich. If I didn't think you were an arrogant person that I have no desire to be around I would gladly have you spend some time with me, both on-duty and off. Then you could see how I and the officers I work around really do "live like the rest of the population." We aren't perfect, we make mistakes. But the vast majority of us do what we think is right and in the best interest of the public, only to be **** on by people like you who don't do anything but sit behing a computer and MMQB every single thing we do.

I don't believe the hate is personal at all, even if your name WAS specifically called out. It's the authority and system that you represent that is the real target (and/or problem). People are lashing out at your badges because they are all the same, even if the chests they are pinned to are all very different people. You are pressed into the mold of "big brother" by your association with the government, no matter how cool or professional you may be personally.

It would be a real experiment for you to actually take some of us on a few ride-alongs and have us report back here with what we have experienced. It should be an INGO event. Maybe it would open some eyes to have civilians come in here with new viewpoints based on what they are actually seeing from your vantage point.

I am critical of police myself, yet I know that I couldn't be one. A man needs to know himself, and I KNOW that I would be doing horrible things in very short order...... Not everyone should even try to be a cop. I don't have, or even WANT to have the resolve I believe it should take to be professional and to conduct myself the way I want our police to behave.

 

[jbombelli]

Thats kind of the point of being a peace officer putting your life on the line for the good of others and if need be sacraficing your life

I have a hard time believing that ANYONE would actually think that includes letting a hostage taker either 1) kill you, or 2) get away and kill the hostage somewhere else.

 

[ru44mag]

I can't believe I'm joining this circus, but here it goes. I believe he probably had to take the shot. It was an awful tragedy, but if he would have let the BG shoot, there is definitly no guarantee that the cop would be the only fatality. Most likely, the BG would have then killed her anyway, and the others too, now with 2 guns, he would not want to leave witnesses. Did the cop have to shoot 8 times? I'm glad it wasn't me, and I'm glad I don't have to prove it one way or the other. Very, very sad for the girl and her family especially her twin sister. The cop has to be going through hell right now, second guessing himself, and all those that think they could have done better should be glad it wasn't you. This poor cop is going to need lots of prayer and support. If he doesn't kill himself or go to drugs/alcohol it will be nothing short of a miracle.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I don't believe the hate is personal at all, even if your name WAS specifically called out. It's the authority and system that you represent that is the real target (and/or problem). People are lashing out at your badges because they are all the same, even if the chests they are pinned to are all very different people. You are pressed into the mold of "big brother" by your association with the government, no matter how cool or professional you may be personally.

It would be a real experiment for you to actually take some of us on a few ride-alongs and have us report back here with what we have experienced. It should be an INGO event. Maybe it would open some eyes to have civilians come in here with new viewpoints based on what they are actually seeing from your vantage point.

I am critical of police myself, yet I know that I couldn't be one. A man needs to know himself, and I KNOW that I would be doing horrible things in very short order...... Not everyone should even try to be a cop. I don't have, or even WANT to have the resolve I believe it should take to be professional and to conduct myself the way I want our police to behave.

I was not calling Frank out as part of the problem personally but rather as lacking the frame of reference to understand the other side of the issue. He gets significant latitude for 'acting in good faith'. Not only do I have to be perfect to avoid legal ramifications, my documentation must be perfect. If the documentation demonstrating my compliance is not perfect, I can be penalized just as severely as if I had actually been guilty of the violation the documentation addressed. I would not get much benefit of the doubt for 'acting in good faith' in the event of being involved in a highway fatality even if the fool did something to bring it on himself that I could not realistically help. If some moron runs into my legally-parked truck while I am in bed asleep, it still counts against my license under the newest batch of rules. If I get caught talking on the phone, it is a $3K fine, but it is perfectly acceptable for a rank amateur to talk on the phone while driving. If, effective next month, my log book is 3 hours behind, I am subject to a multi-thousand dollar fine, even if the three hours would not be enough for me to run into an actual violation of hours of service (i.e., logging through my first hour and getting caught in hour four without having updated, even though it would take ten hours of nonstop driving to actually be in violation). For being labelled a 'professional' I am subject to myriad petty rules with no slack whatsoever. For being a 'professional' a police officer is afforded liberties with the law not available to others. My points are that 1., I expect a professional to be capable of either neutralizing the target or coping until a more favorable situation can be established WITHOUT KILLING THE HOSTAGE HIMSELF and that 2. Not just Frank, but most any police officer has as much chance of understanding life without the huge benefits of the doubt and being excused from the same standards regarding operating within the law that apply to others as Mitt Romney has of understanding living in poverty.

I also understand that being an efficient and upright officer is a difficult job full of challenges and on occasion danger.

I still greatly resent that the people who should be setting the standard are given the greatest latitude to live outside the law and have the lowest expectations regarding performance so far as being penalized for substandard performance is concerned.

 

[Mark 1911]

Very tragic for all involved. I have to think the cop who fired those shots wanted that young woman to live and was trying his best to save her, why else would he have done what he did? I recognize that things may go down differently for him than they would for a non-LEO. That may be true, that may not be just, but that is a separate issue from this one just the same. Even if things do go in his favor as far as the law and his career are concerned, that won't be his hardest struggle. Even if it does work out in his favor from a legal point of view, his life will never be the same. I hope her family can forgive him, I hope he can forgive himself. I try to put myself in his shoes, I just can't, I wasn't there, I don't know the circumstances, I don't know him. I won't make judgments, he will have plenty of that to deal with.

 

[Aaron1776]

This is 100% the fault of the d-bag who grabbed a hostage when confronted by the police.

.

This

Threatening to kill her. Check. Get him to move the gun away from her. Check. Points it at officer. Check. open fire on the guy. Check.

Really don't see what the officer could've done any differently? It's a sad situation regardless.

Well, so long as we're second guessing, I imagine what he could have done differently is made a single head shot. But easier said than done.

Shouldn't the second shot have been sufficient eanough seeing as he was hit with every round? Did the suspect even fire? Why dump a full clip when shooting toward friendly?.This guy was a previous ny cop for 10 years?hostility anyone?. Not trying to bash cop but I say he made bad judgment and took an innocent life

1- It's a magazine NOT a clip
2- He was probably shooting a pistol, a low caliber rifle at best. That means NO. That 2nd shot probably wasn't sufficient.
3- The cop is supposed to wait until the BG shoots him?

The civilian police aren't the military, and the military aren't civilian police.

Have you seen the footage from the Boston bombing and the following manhunt?????

Yes, as a matter of fact my opinion is based my FOF training courtesy of the US Army & having survived multiple tours in Iraq & Afghanistan "locking horns up close & personal" with the Muj for experience with life/death situations.

Btw, the Muj love to use human shields especially women & children. Doing the Death Blossom in these type of situations won't help.

Thanks for your service. I totally understand what you're saying, but we weren't there. Given the obvious disparity in level of training and experience, perhaps you could cut the cop a little slack until we find out all of the details?
Perhaps he tried for the headshot because the first 7 rounds didn't take him down, and the BG jerked the girl in front of him as a shield, then collapsed? Most likely a fairy tale possibility, but we don't know yet.

Perhaps he was reckless, perhpas not. We'll see.

Too much speculation going on here, based on press accounts. I keep expecting someone to bring up the grassy knoll.

I am also wondering, has anyone commented on four adults subdued by one felon. I'll throw another idea in the mix: if the students had had a gun in the house, and been trained to use it, the outcome might have been better.

Not meaning to blame the victim, but this seems like a classic illustration of the futility of relying on 911 to deal with violent criminals.

And how did Mr. Thug get his weapon? Isn't NY "SAFE" these days. The other day they arrested a dangerous felon for carrying 9 rounds in his "7 round" magazine... Whew, that was close!!

THIS!


I'm normally the first person to criticize cops, mostly due to poor experiences that I have had with them. However, they aren't Delta Force. They're cops. This situation was well beyond the skill level he was trained to have, and he likely just did the best he could. At any rate he was that girl's best hope as she wasn't armed and had no way to defend herself.

This is the crap that happens when you rely upon the government. They put you AND the guy that they task to "protect and serve" you in an impossible position.

Assuming he didn't just go buckwild, I really do pity that officer.....and I almost never say those words. (No offense to you LEOs out there. I'm sure most of you on here are cooler than the Dbags I've had to deal with. It takes a lot to be a good cop....but unfortunately it doesn't always take that much to just be a cop.)

 

[actaeon277]

Thats kind of the point of being a peace officer putting your life on the line for the good of others and if need be sacraficing your life

The teachers at Sandy Hook died heroically standing in front of the gunman. It accomplished nothing.

This officer eating a bullet might have accomplished nothing. The hostage might still be killed.

I am not saying the officer is or is not to blame. I want more info before I would say something like that.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Thats kind of the point of being a peace officer putting your life on the line for the good of others and if need be sacraficing your life

If I die trying to protect someone else so be it, but it will be after a hell of a fight. I won't just lay down and die for anyone.