Fight for $15...

[CHCRandy]

A lot of people don't realize it but McDonald's already uses a central ordering system......there are many McDonalds where your order is being taken by someone 1000-2000 miles or more from where you are ordering. This has been going on for years.....it will be the system of the future. You place an order at your drive thru in Indiana to a lady at Hawaii call center......who in turn sends your order back to a computer at the Indiana location where you are. As the order is sent the machines go into action...they make your coke, drop your fries in a fryer....and they also update your inventory and place an order back to distribution to replace the product you just sold.

Some day they will have it so automated the people working a McDonalds will be computer programmers.....

 

[Vigilant]

In 1967 you could buy a new home for $25,000 or less, at $1 an hour, $40 a week......you could own your home in 12 years of minimum wage pay. Today at $7.25, and average home $221,000........it would take only 14 years. In 1967 a gallon of gas was 20 minutes of work, a dozen eggs was 40 minutes of work and a gallon of milk was an hour of minimum wage pay....and men worked while women raised children. Today, gas is still 20 minutes of work, dozen eggs are 20 minutes and a gallon of milk is 30 minutes of minimum wage.... I guess it all works out in the wash, but man I would hate to try to feed a family on $10 an hour. Guess this is why it takes the husband and wife both working.....it's really sad it has come to this.

One Walton will make $400 million in dividends this year........while hundreds of employees sacrifice for next to nothing. McDonalds will make $5 billion in profit this year......if the wage is raised to $15, they will need to figure it out. I honestly think $7.25 is low....but $15 may be a little high. I think my town wastes money, they talk about needing to raise taxes and I say they should just get rid of the dead weight, and problems are solved. If they get rid of the dead weight, productivity don't change because the person was dead weight, but his wage is freed up. SO now you get the same thing done by paying productive people more. I see McDonalds no different. Instead of 15 x $7.25 bodies......they may have to get 8 x $15 productive people who get orders correct. Every where you look you can see waste and people being overpaid.

Greg Garrison always complains about the UAW, he says a guy hanging parts at GM is not worth $30 an hour...that is non skilled trade....and any monkey can be trained to do that. I never hear him complaining about the Union Kroger clerks or the teachers though. I just want to know who is going to be the wage czar? Someone has to decide who is needed and who is not, who is underpaid and worth more and who is overpaid and deserves less.

So raising the minimum wage WILL result in more unemployment? Again, as I have stated in previous similar threads, when minimums go up, the people that make more than minimum will also want to be compensated accordingly, right now, I have three employees who all make over the current minimum, if I am forced to give them all $3-5 an hour raises, then there will be two! Again, F*** any and all who didn't take the risks that owning a small business takes, but thinks I should pay more than a job is worth, because! McDonalds and fast food jobs ARE NOT meant to raise a family on as are very few low/no skill positions!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So raising the minimum wage WILL result in more unemployment?

Historically it has not. The same jobs need to be done, minus those that can now be automated. Job automation is more a function of technology than wages, and as I stated earlier, is something of an inevitability in most fields anyway.

While your particular business many not be able to support it, the economy as a whole can and does. Just grab yourself a chart of the minimum wage and grab yourself a chart of full time workers and see if you find any correlation. I think you'll find you won't, and that it is a tiny, tiny effect in overall employment numbers.

 

[CHCRandy]

Also true. Half the story, but true. There are no free lunches.

The other half of that equation is you are ALWAYS competing against automation. Technology only gets cheaper and more reliable. Ask the forklift operators and order pickers. Look at the MASSIVE change that resulted from farm machinery. Just wait for the changes self driving cars will have on those who work in the transport industry.

There is a certain amount of inevitability in all of this. Technology gets better, it displaces workers, there are fewer jobs, availability of labor goes up, wages go down, etc. etc. Artificial restraints on technology are counterproductive and simply leave those who implement them at a disadvantage against those who don't. The question is, how do we allow people to work and support themselves when more and more of the traditional fields for 'average' workers dry up and disappear. I'll now wait for someone to bring up "buggy whip makers".

Well, as technology evolves....we still need workers, just instead of them hanging a door on a new car, they are now building and programming robots that hang the doors. Automated welders are called semi automated for a reason.....that reason being they still need human intervention. We have robot roof welders.....but they are not capable of setting themselves up. We still have to "command" them by setting them up, setting speed and temp. I remember when automated coal machines came along........all my family thought that was the end of the coal miner..........but it still took a lot of people to build, maintain and operate the machine, it's just they were no longer swinging picks. Obama did in 7 years what automation couldnt do.......destroy coal mines.

In a nutshell....back to AC/DC days......Who made who? They can't work without us...but we can work without them.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Just wait for the changes self driving cars will have on those who work in the transport industry.

Good thing ED 209 didn't work out.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Let's suppose they get the $15 they want. Doubt that it will be the end of it, just the beginning. If I had a fast food operation and my people went on strike over this I would fire them even if I had to close down while I hire replacements. This is just another tentacle of liberalism creeping in to "fundamentally change America".

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time, I've heard of the free market working correctly, labeled as liberalism. You "conservatives" need to figure out how you want the country to work. The workers has every right to demand better wages if they "think" their labor is worth such. The employer, then, as has every right to laugh at them, fire them, and hire replacements. If the employer can't find replacements for the jobs at a price point lower than the worker demands, then the worker's belief in the worth of their labor is correct.

At least that's what David Denslow told me.

 

[findingZzero]

I think we've been over this multiple times on INGO.

1) Labor is a small portion of the cost of most goods. I'm not doing the research and math again, I've already posted on INGO specifics.

2) Prices are not set by the cost of making the product. You go to buy shoes. You like pair "A" and pair "B" but only want one pair. Does "how much did this cost to make" enter your decision making process? No, of course not, you neither know nor care. As such the price of the good does not affect demand. Now, let's say shoe "A" used to cost $10 to make and they sell every pair they can manufacture. They automate, get price breaks on raw material, etc. and their costs go down to $5. Do they lower the retail price $5? Of course not. The market is already supporting the current price. The market (via supply/demand) sets price. Profitability might change. New entrants to the market might change...but that doesn't affect supply on non-fungible goods.

3) What people think is the free market is generally not the free market. Can you go open a McDonald's and sell Big Macs? No, unless you pay for a franchise and become part of the McDonald's business structure. McDonalds has a monopoly on Big Macs, but they can't sell Whoppers. Restaurants are generally competitive monopolies. The supply side is not as fluid as a true free market or commodity markets. Price fluctuations for Big Macs does not affect the availability of Big Macs (supply) but will effect demand, although to what extent depends on how many people decide another food item is a good substitute.

4) Wages injected at the lower end of the economy get spent at a higher percentage rate than at the higher end. Money is to the economy what water is to a mill. If it ain't moving, it ain't doing any work.

5) Real wages for most workers, from the low end to the middle, have dropped over the past few decades and the rate is increasing.

6) Nobody is arguing this should be a career or its anything but entry level. However, people willing to work should at least make enough to support themselves. We, as taxpayers, subsidize these employers who do not pay a living wage via social benefits. IMO, its smarter, more efficient, and increases the incentive to work for the employer to bear the burden of paying an employee enough to live on. $15 is likely too much for that bare minimum of replacement cost, and will vary based on location. Everytime this comes up people get hung up on $15. That's how negotiations work. Start with a goal, negotiate from there.

So you're mad they are trying to improve their wages because they might get closer or surpass you because you are willing to accept what you currently make without protest?

How much money does each man-hour make for McDonald's and the economy as a whole?



...and you the taxpayer has been subsidizing Wal-marts wages to the tune of $6.2 billion.


Report: Walmart Workers Cost Taxpayers $6.2 Billion In Public Assistance

So people who are working a job and protesting to try to get better pay have no drive and just want it handed to them?

I thought this country valued working for a living. We want these jobs done, right? Getting out and protesting isn't drive to better their situations?

People keep posting their bad experiences. Like you don't have those with high paid professionals, I guess.

In the end, economically, the question is will you go back? Yes. You will. Mcdonald's and the rest will continue to make millions. You will keep going there. You will drag out the bad experiences when it suits you for a debate and neglect the good and/or adequate times that keep you going back.

The doctor who set my hand was 90 minutes late to do the surgery and then set my finger crooked. Higher stakes than a milk shake. What impact does that have on how we view the worth of a doctor?

Because "the market" is neither fair nor free in terms of labor. Because we do believe that someone who works for a living should be able to make a living working. Because we do not want to regress to the time when the average laborer's economic value was his replacement cost. Because we want economic mobility and value having a middle class and a path to get there. Because we are tired of subsidizing employers who pay wages that won't support their workers living above the poverty level.

As I frequently say, feel free to tour a county with no labor regulations and a belief that "free market" is what's guiding the wages and working conditions of the workers. I don't see Americans lining up to go there to work.

Also true. Half the story, but true. There are no free lunches.

The other half of that equation is you are ALWAYS competing against automation. Technology only gets cheaper and more reliable. Ask the forklift operators and order pickers. Look at the MASSIVE change that resulted from farm machinery. Just wait for the changes self driving cars will have on those who work in the transport industry.

There is a certain amount of inevitability in all of this. Technology gets better, it displaces workers, there are fewer jobs, availability of labor goes up, wages go down, etc. etc. Artificial restraints on technology are counterproductive and simply leave those who implement them at a disadvantage against those who don't. The question is, how do we allow people to work and support themselves when more and more of the traditional fields for 'average' workers dry up and disappear. I'll now wait for someone to bring up "buggy whip makers".

Historically it has not. The same jobs need to be done, minus those that can now be automated. Job automation is more a function of technology than wages, and as I stated earlier, is something of an inevitability in most fields anyway.

While your particular business many not be able to support it, the economy as a whole can and does. Just grab yourself a chart of the minimum wage and grab yourself a chart of full time workers and see if you find any correlation. I think you'll find you won't, and that it is a tiny, tiny effect in overall employment numbers.

BB!, My man, can't rep you no more. I wanna have your babies! Or just buy you a beer if that sounds too weird.......

 

[Vigilant]

Historically it has not. The same jobs need to be done, minus those that can now be automated. Job automation is more a function of technology than wages, and as I stated earlier, is something of an inevitability in most fields anyway.

While your particular business many not be able to support it, the economy as a whole can and does. Just grab yourself a chart of the minimum wage and grab yourself a chart of full time workers and see if you find any correlation. I think you'll find you won't, and that it is a tiny, tiny effect in overall employment numbers.

My point is, that the bump in the minimum is going to destroy the ones it is meant to "help"! They will be replaced with automation, sure, that opens up a tech job, but that min wage worker isn't going after that high pay tech job because they are supporting a family of 5, and have been content to work the same job for 8 years, and make barely above min wage. People who work a minimum wage job for more than a couple of years, WANT to be where they are in life!

 

[oldpink]

FF used to be entry level and a resume builder and customer-service learning tool. now people demand it be a career

I would hire a chick FIL A employee in a heartbeat over a mcd's employee, sight unseen

What?!
You mean that entry level positions were never intended as a career choice for someone who wanted to support an entire family, college tuition, a nice car, and a mortgage?
I keep hearing politicians say otherwise, so they must be right.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BB!, My man, can't rep you no more. I wanna have your babies! Or just buy you a beer if that sounds too weird.......

......beer sounds fine.

 

[Vigilant]

I lived on minimum wage for a few years! People can do it, by living within your means! No car payment, or cell phone bills, only necessary living expenses! Stop the smokes and beer, clip coupons, etc. it ain't easy, but it can work, I even lived one year on unemployment, which was even more my fault, because there were jobs available, I just wouldn't go do them. I was single, and had no illusion that if I were to be responsible for more that me, S**t had to change!

 

[mtinner]

I make my own burger and fries at home and get it right everytime.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My point is, that the bump in the minimum is going to destroy the ones it is meant to "help"! They will be replaced with automation, sure, that opens up a tech job, but that min wage worker isn't going after that high pay tech job because they are supporting a family of 5, and have been content to work the same job for 8 years, and make barely above min wage. People who work a minimum wage job for more than a couple of years, WANT to be where they are in life!

Well, the minimum wage certainly didn't destroy the ones it was meant to help when it was enacted, didn't destroy them for decades, and in terms of purchasing power it was higher from about the mid 50's through the early '80s than it is today...again without destroying them.

The tech job deal, yes, but even more important is it eliminates many more positions than it creates, but that's really a different conversation and one that I've engaged in on INGO before if anyone cares to dig it up.

What?!
You mean that entry level positions were never intended as a career choice for someone who wanted to support an entire family, college tuition, a nice car, and a mortgage?
I keep hearing politicians say otherwise, so they must be right.

Who, exactly, is saying that?

 

[1775usmarine]

I'm just going to drop this hereMinimum Wage Mythbusters - U.S. Department of Labor

We have been trying trickle down economics for years. It doesn't work. The only way to grow the economy is to pay workers more, because then they spend more.

Think of it like a cycle, companies pay more, workers
spend more, companies have more money. Rinse repeat.

If raising the minimum wage is so good then why hasn't the gov done it? Have you seen what happened in Seattle? https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

 

[churchmouse]

A lot of people don't realize it but McDonald's already uses a central ordering system......there are many McDonalds where your order is being taken by someone 1000-2000 miles or more from where you are ordering. This has been going on for years.....it will be the system of the future. You place an order at your drive thru in Indiana to a lady at Hawaii call center......who in turn sends your order back to a computer at the Indiana location where you are. As the order is sent the machines go into action...they make your coke, drop your fries in a fryer....and they also update your inventory and place an order back to distribution to replace the product you just sold.

Some day they will have it so automated the people working a McDonalds will be computer programmers.....

I have never seen this in Indiana McDonald's. I have been in so many of them servicing the drink systems/ice machines/walk ins/HVAC and all are in house ordering. Real people making the grub/using the multi-plex drink systems.

I am sure this is coming but have yet to see it.

 

[Vigilant]

The tech job deal, yes, but even more important is it eliminates many more positions than it creates, but that's really a different conversation and one that I've engaged in on INGO before if anyone cares to dig it up.



Who, exactly, is saying that?

im sort of confused, eliminating positions is a bad thing isn't it? If you eliminate more positions than you create, how could that not hurt the lower wage earner, who, most likely doesn't qualify for the higher wage position? Or am I misreading what was posted?

 

[oldpink]

[...]

Who, exactly, is saying that?

You clearly haven't heard the buzzword "living wage" being thrown around by these selfsame politicos, have you?

 

[CHCRandy]

I have never seen this in Indiana McDonald's. I have been in so many of them servicing the drink systems/ice machines/walk ins/HVAC and all are in house ordering. Real people making the grub/using the multi-plex drink systems.

I am sure this is coming but have yet to see it.

Cm, this is an old article. I don't have time to do my D&D to see if it is still ongoing. They started doing this back in 2003 or 2004.......... http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/11/technology/11fast.html?_r=0


BTW........Is a multi-plex machine the one that tries to make it as it is ordered? Drops the cup and conveyors it around? Them seem to always mess up at my McDonalds......looks like it takes a lot of human interaction to keep them functioning.

 

[Vigilant]

One last point, and I will try to shut up! Everyone loves bashing Walmart for it's low wages. I posit, from PERSONAL, first hand experience, that if you work for Walmart more than a few years, and still make barely above minimum, YOU just might be the problem! I worked for them for a few years in the mid 90's, was paid well, EARNED advancement, and when I graduated college, left them making ~$30K, and had about $60K in stock(thanks to the GI Bill allowing me to divert as much salary into the matching stock program as possible, but that's another story!). I made minimum wage for about 6 mos. before being promoted, and after 1.5 was in their management training program. My store manager made 6 figures! Initiative will work WAAY better than b******g about low wages and not doing something to better yourself!

 

[Robjps]

Honestly having managed chain restaurants before. If they paid $15 a hour they would save money and provide better service/product. Plenty of exceptional workers are or have been employed by fast food.

Paying minimum wage is why those great employees do not stick around and you are left with the dregs of society taking your order and preparing your food. Good workers work fast food as a stop between real jobs or their first job.

Paying someone do x3 the work at only x2 the cost is a huge win.