The President Trump Immigration Thread

[printcraft]

...Often when it is extremely desperate they can do things which in turn may affect us. So if we desire those outcomes not to interfere with us we might want to go out of our way just a bit to guarantee our well being.

I agree!

 

[Dddrees]

I agree!

LOL

It seems you do this often when you run out of things to say,

 

[printcraft]

LOL

It seems you do this often when you run out of things to say,

No, I just recognize the futility of talking to a brick wall.

Get it?

 

[Dddrees]

No, I just recognize the futility of talking to a brick wall.

Get it?

Ah, so you fail to see those same qualities in yourself.

 

[BugI02]

There are similarities though, but your right there are some major differences as well. But typically if you think crushing anyone and keeping them down is a good thing it's not.

#Carthage

 

[Alpo]

My neighbor was NOT amused.

I explained to him that it was his responsibility to provide opportunities for me but he didn't seem to be buying my argument.

I told him that he was keeping me down. It might result in armed conflict if he doesn't let me have his ****.

That should work.

Next time, perhaps, you should attempt your collections wearing pants? Just a thought.

 

[printcraft]

Next time, perhaps, you should attempt your collections wearing pants? Just a thought.

Stop keeping me down, you owe me too.

 

[Alpo]

Yeah. I remember. One of these days.

 

[IndyDave1776]

That's kind if my thoughts that I suspect that some of that aid is actually aiding the other team. I'm okay with legalizing mj. Heroine, cocaine, probably not. Neverthe less, I've been skeptical of the wall all along. I think it is mainly symbolic and not all that useful for the money it would cost.

Heroin = drug

Heroine= female hero

Meh. Distinction without a difference?

You're reminding me that I could easily get addicted to heroine. Heroin, not so much!

I think there are some Countires that recognize that the real harmful drugs like heroin are better treated as an addiction. That there will always be addicts and they take the approach or treating the addict and not trying to fight the drug, I can't remember which Countries do this, not sure how they approach it, and I have no idea what kind of success they are having. However it seems like it's time we look at doing something different than what we have been doing as that doesn't seem to be working.

That, or let them self-liquidate. Unfortunately, history has demonstrated that protecting the stupid from themselves is a fool's errand.

A wall would make it harder for people to cross so it would most defiantly slow it down. Security forces along the wall would help further.

It never will be completley stopped but that doesn't mean we should open up the boarder and do nothing. This article was about drugs, but it could easily be about terorists or the like.

We need secure boarders.

At minimum, it would make it harder to simply drive across the border, often as not in military vehicles we most likely paid for.

But just remember if you impose some sort of fee on one of your trading partners not to mention one of your largest partners you've just imposed a fee on yourself. In the end we're still paying for it.

Explain this please. You keep reminding us that Mexico is our 3rd largest trading partner by volume. The majority of this 'trade' amounts to our companies shipping goods into Mexico to be manufactured with cheap labor and then shipping them back. This is a parasitic relationship. I fail to see where we lose anything by disrupting it.

Not quite correct. If goods from a particular source become expensive enough, alternate sources will rush to fill the market. Excluding the vehicles and appliances we have them manufacture for us, because we have allowed them to be a source of cheap labor just across a tariff-free border (thanks to NAFTA), the export mainly agricultural products. They have a great deal of competition in this space.

If we tighten up on the free-flow of goods manufactured in Mexico at the behest of US corporations (with a tariff structure) then there will be a temporary spike in the cost of those goods while corporations rethink their production strategy, but automobile manufacturers who have plants in the US are well poised to capitalize on this

All in all, Mexico's economy will be crushed while ours shows barely a ripple


ETA:This post does not explore whether crushing Mexico's economy would be a good or a bad thing. I doubt Mexico would let it go anywhere near the point of extremis and we would quickly negotiate a wall payment plan

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm just saying if you think that keeping people down is a good course of action you might want to seriously re-think that strategy. Because guess what those same people will do their utmost to do whatever they think they need to do to better themselves even if it takes armed conflict. It depends on how desperate they are and sometimes if there is a path of least resistance. In Mexicos case for a time it was illegal immigration. Now that they have better opportunities in their country it is less so.

Well I can't help that you fail to see the point I'm trying to make. I didn't say it was your neighbors fault nor did I say it was our fault for their plight or their economic condition. What I was trying to say is that when people find themselves in a bad enough condition they often do whatever it is they need to do to better themselves. Often when it is extremely desperate they can do things which in turn may affect us. So if we desire those outcomes not to interfere with us we might want to go out of our way just a bit to guarantee our well being.

1. We are not keeping them down. Stopping them from taking what is ours is not keeping them down. As a country they are as old as we are and could have got up off their damned lazy asses at any time during that same period of history just like we did. They didn't. That's on them.

2. Just because they are in a bad situation, largely of their own manufacture, that doesn't make them our problem so long as they stay on their side of the border. If they can 't manage that, well, to borrow Printcraft's analogy, I would give them a burglar's reward and the problem would be solved.

 

[Dddrees]

1. We are not keeping them down. Stopping them from taking what is ours is not keeping them down. As a country they are as old as we are and could have got up off their damned lazy asses at any time during that same period of history just like we did. They didn't. That's on them.

2. Just because they are in a bad situation, largely of their own manufacture, that doesn't make them our problem so long as they stay on their side of the border. If they can 't manage that, well, to borrow Printcraft's analogy, I would give them a burglar's reward and the problem would be solved.

The point was not that we are at fault for their circumstances. The point was when people are unhappy with their circumstances they will do whatever they need to put themselves in a better circumstance. They will tend to take the path of less resistance. In their recent history this was to illegal cross our border. In other countries with different circumstances that is even more dire this can often resort to unrest and eventually war.

In this case it made it our problem because now we not only have a few but we now have millions of illegal immigrants which originally came from Mexico.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The point was not that we are at fault for their circumstances. The point was when people are unhappy with their circumstances they will do whatever they need to put themselves in a better circumstance. They will tend to take the path of less resistance. In their recent history this was to illegal cross our border. In other countries with different circumstances that is even more dire this can often resort to unrest and eventually war.

In this case it made it our problem because now we not only have a few but we now have millions of illegal immigrants which originally came from Mexico.

You are absolutely right. Consequently, we need to do two things: First, make it so that those violating our border understand that this is a direct pipeline to unpleasant consequences which may include imprisonment and may include death. Second, see to it that the Mexican government learns better than to continue assisting illegal immigration. For a great many years, Mexico.gov has been supplying Mexican citizens with instructions and supplies to assist them in violating our border as a means to relieve pressure on Mexico.gov by converting their problems into our problems. Once again, my solution is to offer one chance to stop this nonsense. If they predictably ignore us and continue, then eliminate their president, VP, and cabinet and offer their replacements the same one chance to change their behavior in the matter. Eventually, someone will take a hint.

 

[HubertGummer]

The point was not that we are at fault for their circumstances. The point was when people are unhappy with their circumstances they will do whatever they need to put themselves in a better circumstance. They will tend to take the path of less resistance. In their recent history this was to illegal cross our border. In other countries with different circumstances that is even more dire this can often resort to unrest and eventually war.

In this case it made it our problem because now we not only have a few but we now have millions of illegal immigrants which originally came from Mexico.

Hence the wall. Make it harder to move north.

 

[Dddrees]

Hence the wall. Make it harder to move north.

Have you ever heard of tunnels, boats, and airplanes? If people's circumstances don't improve their desire to do something about it never goes away, and in some cases even gets stronger.

Try your best to put yourself in someone else's shoes and consider what you would do.

 

[Dddrees]

You are absolutely right. Consequently, we need to do two things: First, make it so that those violating our border understand that this is a direct pipeline to unpleasant consequences which may include imprisonment and may include death. Second, see to it that the Mexican government learns better than to continue assisting illegal immigration. For a great many years, Mexico.gov has been supplying Mexican citizens with instructions and supplies to assist them in violating our border as a means to relieve pressure on Mexico.gov by converting their problems into our problems. Once again, my solution is to offer one chance to stop this nonsense. If they predictably ignore us and continue, then eliminate their president, VP, and cabinet and offer their replacements the same one chance to change their behavior in the matter. Eventually, someone will take a hint.

At some point it gets to the point you'll have to figure out how much your willing to isolate yourself and how many and which fights or conflicts you want to get involved in. Even as great as we are, we are only capabable of doing so much. Besides how much of our economic well being at this point is dependent on others? Reasonably how well can we really expect to do all on our own? Not to mention how great it would be if our next door neighbor is in total disarray, You really think a wall will keep that kind of thing at bay?

 

[IndyDave1776]

At some point it gets to the point you'll have to figure out how much your willing to isolate yourself and how many and which fights or conflicts you want to get involved in. Even as great as we are, we are only capabable of doing so much. Besides how much of our economic well being at this point is dependent on others? Reasonably how well can we really expect to do all on our own? Not to mention how great it would be if our next door neighbor is in total disarray, You really think a wall will keep that kind of thing at bay?

As with any plan of defense, it necessarily must be layered. This includes conventional border enforcement (without an administration like our previous one tying the hands of those sent to enforce the border), physical barriers, remote surveillance, and use of force, LE and military. There really can't be much more disorder than there already is. Mexico is largely a failed state with the government still controlling most of the population centers and the cartels ruling the rest. Our economic well-being is not really a relevant argument considering that, once again, maintaining parasitic relationships DOES NOT help us, and we desperately need to rediscover self-interest when shaping our foreign policy.

 

[BugI02]

Have you ever heard of tunnels, boats, and airplanes? If people's circumstances don't improve their desire to do something about it never goes away, and in some cases even gets stronger.

Try your best to put yourself in someone else's shoes and consider what you would do.

What we are saying is they need to pressure, and if need be force, their government to take action and make their situation better. We need to make an extremely difficult to forge form of identification for actual citizens and then make all non-citizens ineligible for any and all assistance programs and to be employable. Remove any economic incentive to come here, fine employers who employ the undocumented and jail them when fines don't work.

The nearly unfalsifiable ID, coupled with making it clear that there is NO path to citizenship if you are here illegally, should make it impossible for border jumpers to EVER vote. This, in turn, should cool the ardor of half of our electorate to have them come here

If none of this is sufficient, with proper warning, establish a 'deadline' (in its original Civil War meaning) at the border. Collapse a few tunnels, sink a few boats, shoot down a few airplanes and widely publicize these events and you will cool the ardor to cross the border. When you catch coyotes, execute them - just like we do with the furred kind

 

[HubertGummer]

Have you ever heard of tunnels, boats, and airplanes? If people's circumstances don't improve their desire to do something about it never goes away, and in some cases even gets stronger.

Try your best to put yourself in someone else's shoes and consider what you would do.

It still will be harder for them with a wall there. I'm not saying it will fix the issue entirely, just that it will help.

It's Mexico's job to make life better for its citizens, It's Americas job to make life better/more secure for OUR citizens.

 

[Dddrees]

As with any plan of defense, it necessarily must be layered. This includes conventional border enforcement (without an administration like our previous one tying the hands of those sent to enforce the border), physical barriers, remote surveillance, and use of force, LE and military. There really can't be much more disorder than there already is. Mexico is largely a failed state with the government still controlling most of the population centers and the cartels ruling the rest. Our economic well-being is not really a relevant argument considering that, once again, maintaining parasitic relationships DOES NOT help us, and we desperately need to rediscover self-interest when shaping our foreign policy.

What we are saying is they need to pressure, and if need be force, their government to take action and make their situation better. We need to make an extremely difficult to forge form of identification for actual citizens and then make all non-citizens ineligible for any and all assistance programs and to be employable. Remove any economic incentive to come here, fine employers who employ the undocumented and jail them when fines don't work.

The nearly unfalsifiable ID, coupled with making it clear that there is NO path to citizenship if you are here illegally, should make it impossible for border jumpers to EVER vote. This, in turn, should cool the ardor of half of our electorate to have them come here

If none of this is sufficient, with proper warning, establish a 'deadline' (in its original Civil War meaning) at the border. Collapse a few tunnels, sink a few boats, shoot down a few airplanes and widely publicize these events and you will cool the ardor to cross the border. When you catch coyotes, execute them - just like we do with the furred kind

It still will be harder for them with a wall there. I'm not saying it will fix the issue entirely, just that it will help.

It's Mexico's job to make life better for its citizens, It's Americas job to make life better/more secure for OUR citizens.

Well if it's so obvious and easy I'm just surprised, no amazed this hasn't been tried already. In fact I'm astonished that Trump the all knowing didn't do this day one. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if he ever gets around to it at all.

 

[JTScribe]

Mexico's southern border policy is aimed at keeping Central Americans out. Why is it that their policy, there, is ignored, while our desire to do something similar is somehow racist?

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