Stopped by Terre Haute PD for OC'ing -- On a Date!

[Expat]

Code book....what's a code book.

I think they's doing some fancy cop talk.

 

[Joe Williams]

"snip
"3rd, if it is so "not advisable" why do LEOs OC?"
Oh, my. You aren't serious, are you?

Yes. Answer the question, if you can.

 

[theweakerbrother]

Yawn. As is all to frequent these days, there are those who will construe personal observations as being "attacks" when the comments fail to suit their fancy or line of thought.
I was merely looking at this much ballyhooed incident from the standpoint of a police officer who has been trained to hope for the best, while at the same time being prepared for the unexpected.
I stand by my observation that this young man was purposely calling attention to himself by openly carrying his weapon.
How many of you posters go to your local 7-Eleven with an openly carried handgun?
How many of you go to music fests with same?

My bottom line was, and IS, about officer safety. And the safety of the populace we are sworn to protect.

Citizen Rule #1: Make it home safe at the end of the day. - Serpicostraight

 

[Joe Williams]

I'm out of Neg rep can someone hit him again?

Trust me, done. Anti-gunners are a threat to our freedom and Constitution.

 

[Mike Elzinga]

Do you really place officer security above the Constitution? Just as the police have no legal requirement to help the general public, the general public has no right to make police security their #1 priority. I will NEVER understand why police officers continue to disarm, handle and unload firearms from people NOT committing a crime in the name of "safety"!!!! It will always be safest in a holster.

ps... no one likes a troll

 

[ATM]

I'm out of Neg rep can someone hit him again?

Nope, I'm waiting for the "element of surprise."

 

[Im4the2nd]

open carry

Open carry seems to attract trouble. My fear is having weapon taken from me and ultimately used on me. I walk our pet with the grip of my 38 showing from my waistline due to the fact my shirt is tucked in and the looks I get are uncomfortable to say the least. my wife was attacked, bit and our pet on a leash died from the savage beating it took from a larger dog. I have two rounds of bird shot and 3 rounds of business in the 38 only to be used in dire straights as a swift kick a loud whistle are considered attempts in my book. rather keep the element of suprise on my side.

 

[Joe Williams]

Open carry seems to attract trouble. My fear is having weapon taken from me and ultimately used on me. I walk our pet with the grip of my 38 showing from my waistline due to the fact my shirt is tucked in and the looks I get are uncomfortable to say the least. my wife was attacked, bit and our pet on a leash died from the savage beating it took from a larger dog. I have two rounds of bird shot and 3 rounds of business in the 38 only to be used in dire straights as a swift kick a loud whistle are considered attempts in my book. rather keep the element of suprise on my side.

Only trouble it attracts is from verminous scum who cannot respect our rights or freedom.

Now, that is not the same as saying people SHOULD OC. The fact that I choose to do so now and then is my choice, as is it is yours to CC if you wish. There are valid arguments about the merits of both, and it's a choice we are free to make. Oh and welcome to INGO. That's a heck of a "first" post.

 

[ATM]

Nope, I'm waiting for the "element of surprise."

...rather keep the element of suprise on my side.

That was quicker than expected!

 

[long coat]

My bottom line was, and IS, about officer safety. And the safety of the populace we are sworn to protect.

If it is about LEO safety, then why do you stop cars on the side of the road? Thats not a safe place to be.

 

[Expat]

Open carry seems to attract trouble..

There are several suspected troublemakers in this thread...

 

[Expat]

Only trouble it attracts is from verminous scum who cannot respect our rights or freedom.
.

See, here is a well known trouble maker now.. You gotta be careful, I'm telling you.

 

[Joe Williams]

See, here is a well known trouble maker now.. You gotta be careful, I'm telling you.

Dude! And I was just about to compliment you on how cute you look laying there hugging your new boyfriend in your avatar

 

[Eddie]

Only trouble it attracts is from verminous scum who cannot respect our rights or freedom.

Now, that is not the same as saying people SHOULD OC. The fact that I choose to do so now and then is my choice, as is it is yours to CC if you wish. There are valid arguments about the merits of both, and it's a choice we are free to make. Oh and welcome to INGO. That's a heck of a "first" post.

Verminous Scum! I like that. I like the way it sort of rolls off my tongue. "Verminous Scum!"

 

[Joe Williams]

Verminous Scum! I like that. I like the way it sort of rolls off my tongue. "Verminous Scum!"

It does roll off quite nicely, and is SO appropriate for any American citizen, of whatever walk of life, that simply cannot seem to tolerate the freedoms we are supposed to have, that cannot stand the thought that others may not make the same choices they do.

 

[mk2ja]

Aw heck, church doesn't start for another several hours, so I guess I have time to go ahead and reply to this.

I have a tendency to agree with the THPD on this one and to disagree with Mr. Youngblood.
I have dealt with very similar situations over the years, so I speak from experience.

If you have indeed spent time as a LEO, I do thank you for being willing to put your life on the line to maintain law and order in our society.

While carrying openly is legal (with a CCW Permit) it is not advisable.

As others mentioned, I don't have a permit to a carry concealed weapon. There are several states that dictate the manner in which a handgun must be carried, but Indiana is not one of them. (Which is fortunate as it leaves the decision up to the informed citizen.) I have participated in discussions about the merits of OC and CC and read through many more without chiming in, and, subsequently, I have made what I believe is a solid, informed decision about the manner of carry at various times and locations. (Yes, I cede that I made a mistake by OC'ing in a "victim-disarmament zone" and did, in this case, make myself a target for the cops by carrying in a prohibited area. That was a failure on my part -- and one which I will not allow to happen again.)

Since Mr. Youngblood was at a venue where there were crowds all around, and since I doubt that he has been trained in weapons retention, I can see the possibility of someone coming up from behind him and "snatching" his handgun.
This young man probably has no inkling that there are prisoners in our institutions who compare notes and even rehearse how to snatch a handgun from a police officer's holster. He would be "easy pickings" for some of these types.

I come from an engineering background, so I see things through that type of lens. One observation I've made about carrying a gun is that, in some respects, it is about playing the odds. First, the reason we carry in the first place is that we believe the odds are non-zero that we may find ourselves in a situation where the presence of a firearm -- and, in some cases, its use -- will be able to prevent or terminate an encounter with a person or persons doing very bad things. It is probably true that more people in this country are not involved in such situations, so the odds are heavily against us needing our guns, yet we carry them anyway.

Moreover, we play the odds when we decide what we carry. Do we want to carry a 1911 and hope that 7+1 rounds of .45 ACP are enough? Or would we rather have 19 rounds of 9mm? Perhaps we decide on a .40S&W as a middle ground. What we feel we are most likely to need in a self-defense situation drives what we decide to carry... but even that may not be consistent. Maybe a person carries a small subcompact while jogging -- he plays the odds that it will still be enough to meet his needs even though he'd rather carry a full-size sidearm. Maybe a person carries a fancy 1911 with ivory handles to a wedding -- he plays the odds that it will still meet his needs even though he'd rather carry a higher-capacity sidearm. Everything is a trade-off at some point, just like we learned in high school economics.

Similarly, the decision to OC or CC plays the odds. Do we want the element of surprise or the element of deterrence? Is the element of surprise not the same thing as literally making oneself a target so that one has the ability to take a step back, draw steel, and, with a yell of "Ha! I gotcha now!", make the criminal pay for thinking he had been a helpless, defenseless target? (Yes, an exaggeration, forsooth. Hopefully a slightly humorous one, as few would claim that's the attitude maintained by one who CC's.)

My final point on how we play the odds leads right back to your scenario. While I do not doubt that what you proposed is possible, I deem that it is more unlikely that I will meet that type of criminal than the kind who sees the gun and decides to find another, less prepared, less dangerous mark for his crime. There are numerous documented cases throughout the country of criminals seeing armed citizens and decided not to follow through with plans to commit various crimes; there are few, if any at all, documented cases of people being targeted for a crime because they were openly carrying a gun. I'll take those odds.

It has also been my experience that it is often the newly licensed who carry openly. Why? In my opinion it is because they like to "show off" and in many cases rather enjoy the attention/intimidation factor that carrying openly results in.

Compared to many, I am still a newly licensed individual. I've only been carrying for about 13 months now. When my father and I decided to start carrying, we turned to those who had been carrying already for a while to get advice. The person who helped us get started was one whose opinion we highly respected, and he guided us towards concealed carry, which was what he had decided to do. So for the first couple months, that's what I did.

I continued to educate myself about the matters of carrying, though, both by reading on these forums, reading respected experts' books, and looking for opportunities to receive further training from qualified instructors. The more I learned, and the more I applied my own mind to the situations, the more I came to realize that there are situations when OC is appropriate, even preferred, and there are situations when CC is appropriate and preferred. Subsequently, I now carry how I feel is most appropriate for the time and place wherein I find myself.

My decision has nothing to do with wanting to show off or intimidate people, but I will not say it has nothing to with attention. As I mentioned to Cop 1 and to my date, one reason I OC is that it helps the ignorant (often called "sheeple") realize that merely seeing a person with a gun is not just cause for alarm. I have been carrying for over a year now, and on many occasions I have had people strike up conversation as a result of my sidearm. "Are you a cop?" "Are you in the military?" "Are you allowed to carry that like that?" "Are you allowed to carry that here?" "What kind of gun is that?" "Is that a 9mm?"

I do not shirk my responsibility to help educate my fellow citizens about our rights, just as others were willing to help me and my dad get started down this path not too long ago. Sparsely scattered among the ocean of uneventful "OC days", I have had the pleasure of engaging many people in conversation about my sidearm, my authorization to carry it, my motivation to carry it, and our right to carry one. (Refer to the "where did you OC today?" thread for many more posts from me about these encounters, or, more commonly, completely uneventful days.) This was not the first time I'd met a cop while carrying openly, but it was the first time I met a cop while OC'ing in a prohibited area. That was "my bad", and it won't happen again.

Mister Youngblood could have saved himself (and his date) a lot of time and embarrassment by simply concealing his handgun, but, judging from his numerous posts, I stand by my statement that he is enjoying the attention. It further sounds as if he was not embarrassed at all.

Could have saved myself a lot of time if I hadn't even gone to the park... or if I hadn't even mustered up the nerve to ask the girl out in the first place! Then I could've just sat at home reading a book or watching a movie or shooting the breeze with my friends over in the Official [STRIKE]Post Whore[/STRIKE] Status Update thread. Incidentally, that is why I have such a -- shall we say, "healthy"? -- post count. Making friends with other people who share my desire to be able to defend ourselves, I have learned much about life and about guns from these folks.

I didn't catch the time on my watch when the first cop approached me, but I would estimate that I had the phone recording at least half of the time. The entire encounter couldn't have been much more than 5-6 minutes. We weren't even late for the movie!

You know what I did find embarrassing? The fact that my gun hadn't been cleaned since the last time I shot it. As I said in a previous post, I was in the process of moving, living out of a suitcase -- I just hadn't had time to clean it yet! Having a cop see my gun in such an unclean state, yes, that left me embarrassed.

I submit to you, sir, that if you and I met, your opinion that I do anything for the attention would surely change. I believe I have friends on this very website who would back up that claim based on the few times they've met me and the discussions we've had over the past year.

Oh, and for the record, officers can check for valid CCW permits. It is not unheard of that a CCW license has been revoked at the State level, so the mere possession of that little piece of pink paper is not indicative of the fact that the carrier of same has a clean and clear record.

I did not dispute their authority to do so, neither at the time of the encounter nor in my posts recounting it, so I realize this probably isn't directly aimed at me. It is good to have it on the record, though. And, I'll point out, also for the record, that since it turned out I was carrying in a prohibited zone, the cops had every responsibility and authority to stop me and check me out.

Fortunately, I do have a clean and clear record, so I was sped along on my way.

And on a personal level? I wonder why a gal would want to go out on a date/dates with someone who openly carries a handgun and who seems to enjoy and, indeed, invite his confrontations with law officers?

Heh, I kinda wondered why she'd go out with me at all!

In all seriousness, though, it would appear that some women nowadays still recognize that a man with a gun is probably a lot better equipped to keep her safe from any threat than a man without. As for my blatant desire to cause confrontations with law enforcement... please understand that I have no such desire. I think that the officers I met were able to determine that, as well, which was why the situation ended as harmlessly as it did -- no shots fired, no backups called, no cuffs, and no tickets. And, as it turned out, not really much of a delay either.

Had that been myself who responded to this situation, and had I the City Ordinance to issue a citation, and had this young man argued with me at length, I would have.

Do you get the impression from that transcript that I was arguing at length? I think a clear-headed reading of the transcript easily reveals that no party involved was being argumentative. Perhaps once I get the audio posted, so that you can hear the tone of voice, that will make it easier for you to realize.

The responding officers handled this situation very well and exercised what we refer to as "officer discretion".

I whole-heartedly agree.

And yes, the officers had every lawful right to ask this young man to unload and temporarily surrender his weapon. They had no idea of whom they were confronting.

Again, we are in agreement. Had I been in an area where I was sure I was not in violation of any law, code, or ordinance, I would likely have replied, "Sir, I'd rather keep it on my person." Given the circumstances, though, I think that we (the cops and I) each handled that aspect well.

Again, had that been myself, I would have not trusted this young man to even touch his weapon, much less remove the magazine. I would have asked him to raise his arms while I removed it and made it safe. You know...officer safety?

Indeed, I was exceedingly surprised that he asked me to hand him my sidearm! And, once the magazine was removed, and they were informed of the additional round in the chamber, I did stand with my arms raised above my waist (not over my head like I was under arrest) while he reached over and carefully removed it from my holster.




Whew... that only took an hour to write. God bless anybody who reads all that!

 

[Expat]

Dude! And I was just about to compliment you on how cute you look laying there hugging your new boyfriend in your avatar

Don't act like you didn't throw a hissy fit when I dumped you for him

 

[Joe Williams]

Don't act like you didn't throw a hissy fit when I dumped you for him

Tramp.

 

[ATM]

I stand by my observation that this young man was purposely calling attention to himself by openly carrying his weapon.

So what if he was? Open carriers just aren't attacked with even remotely the same regularity of those who carry concealed.
Seems wise.

How many of you posters go to your local 7-Eleven with an openly carried handgun?

I do.

How many of you go to music fests with same?

I do.

My bottom line was, and IS, about officer safety. And the safety of the populace we are sworn to protect.

Really? Then why finger the gun? Why hand it back in a condition that requires more fingering?
Negligent discharges just don't happen when guns are left in holsters.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Yeah right!!! Except that refusing to identify yourself while commiting an infraction of a city ordinance is a C Misdemeanor and an outrightable offense.

So no ticket but instead.....the pokey.

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

sorry I didnt make myself clear. show your LTCH (and DL if your in violation of an infraction) and then shut your mouth

I figure the LTCH thing is a given.

everyone thinks the cops gave this guy a break, when I think they probly just didnt know their own city ordinance.