License, registration.....and religious status?

[actaeon277]

Jesus and libertarianism are polar opposites.

Just a statement? Or are you going to explain.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Jesus and libertarianism are polar opposites.

Libertarians don't believe in letting folks suffer the consequences of not following the rules?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Jesus and libertarianism are polar opposites.

I agree with you in most instances, but not in this case.

 

[level.eleven]

I agree with you in most instances, but not in this case.

What is the case? Our government, in particular the Bill of Rights, are the exact opposite of the decalogue.

 

[Route 45]

I think that is a fair statement, but only if we ignore Grace. He sacrificed pretty significantly to provide a remedy. That couldn't be classified as evil.

The sacrifice was no more than many others had gone through at the time. Crucifixion was a common means of execution. Besides that, popping up refreshed 3 days later sort of negates the whole thing, in my mind.

Considering that the source of both the damnation and the "remedy" are the same, the "sacrifice" rings hollow.

 

[Route 45]

At some point in everyone's life, we all accept something on faith, without conclusive evidence. Right now you lack conclusive evidence to refute God, and you are staking your immortal soul on your conclusion. I would rather me be wrong and you be right. The consequences are not that bad for me if I'm wrong.

Billions of people have lived and died before you, the vast majority of a different faith.
I'm sure they all thought that they were right.
How strong is your faith, if the reality is that you are just hedging your bets?

 

[Drail]

Excellent retort sir.

 

[Woobie]

Billions of people have lived and died before you, the vast majority of a different faith.
I'm sure they all thought that they were right.
How strong is your faith, if the reality is that you are just hedging your bets?

It really isn't based on anything small like that at all. But it's a fair rhetorical device. You're welcome to disagree of course. I'm sure you will understand I disagree with your characterization of the Gospel. You and I have faith in different things.

 

[Dead Duck]

The sacrifice was no more than many others had gone through at the time. Crucifixion was a common means of execution. Besides that, popping up refreshed 3 days later sort of negates the whole thing, in my mind.

Considering that the source of both the damnation and the "remedy" are the same, the "sacrifice" rings hollow.

Obviously you don't get it if you think He was just simply - crucified.

And that's Ok...

 

[Trigger Time]

Honest question:

Do you think there is anyone in Indiana that hasn't heard "the word"?

There are three Christian churches within a half a mile of my house, including my official polling location...radio, television, the Internet: all full of "the word". If I want it, I have no problem gaining access to "the word".

LDS, Jehovah's Witness, and a non-denominational Christian "outreach" ministry have all ignored my CLEARLY POSTED "No Soliciting" sign within the last six weeks...all eager to bring "the word" into my living room, whether I wanted it or not.



I have heard "the word"...as a Hoosier it would appear I have no realistic choice otherwise. Now, please tell me...what on Earth does it take to get Christians to keep "the word" to themselves?

you just need to run out in your boxers or underwear with an American Flag singing the national anthem. It repels JW's really well trust me

 

[indyjohn]

I believe he will find an assignment in a sympathetic local agency.

 

[Lowe0]

It really isn't based on anything small like that at all. But it's a fair rhetorical device. You're welcome to disagree of course. I'm sure you will understand I disagree with your characterization of the Gospel. You and I have faith in different things.

Rules are rules. How they're characterised has nothing to do with the outcome, should they turn out to be true. Those of us unable to believe without evidence are a small sacrifice to be made to preserve the rules for everyone else. If Christian doctrine turns out to be true, I'm just one of God's rounding errors.

 

[Trigger Time]

I believe he will find an assignment in a sympathetic local agency.

Yeah but bye bye pension

 

[Woobie]

Rules are rules. How they're characterised has nothing to do with the outcome, should they turn out to be true. Those of us unable to believe without evidence are a small sacrifice to be made to preserve the rules for everyone else. If Christian doctrine turns out to be true, I'm just one of God's rounding errors.

We all believe things without all the evidence. We are just disagreeing about which ones we choose.

 

[Lowe0]

We all believe things without all the evidence. We are just disagreeing about which ones we choose.

Belief isn't a choice; it's just a response to a set of stimuli. That's like saying water chooses to be wet or snow chooses to be cold.

 

[Dead Duck]

Belief isn't a choice; it's just a response to a set of stimuli. That's like saying water chooses to be wet or snow chooses to be cold.

So-
You believe that you don't have a choice that belief isn't a choice? wait....












I believe I'm going to bed now....

 

[Dead Duck]

I believe I double posted..........If I had a choice, I wouldn't have............so I did.

 

[Woobie]

Belief isn't a choice; it's just a response to a set of stimuli. That's like saying water chooses to be wet or snow chooses to be cold.

Belief is most certainly a choice. My beliefs are not forced upon me by the way I was raised, cosmic forces, or last night's pizza. I choose them. Laughter is a response to stimuli, joy is a choice. Emphatuation is a response to stimuli, love is a choice.

Faced with the decision to believe in Christ or not, we choose. It is not involuntary. You will make up your own mind about what to do with Him. And no one should be trying to force anyone's choice.

And so, if I may bring this back around to the topic, people in positions of authority must be careful about how they behave officially. I support the (ex) trooper's 1A rights. But one could construe his efforts as an abuse of authority. A sort of arm-twisting, if you will. Christians should share the Gospel, but there shouldn't be even a whiff of encroaching on anyone's God-given free will.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Great news. I can throw all my scales, micrometers, and calipers in the trash.

You'll still need them for reloading and such. Just saying.

I'm sorry, I just can't shut my brain off like that. To worship something that I can't possibly understand, because a centuries old book tells me to. I suppose that's the essence of faith....to shut up and just believe. If I am wrong in the end, hopefully I will be forgiven for thinking like the flawed creature that I was created to be. I don't hold out much hope for that, though. To create a being with life and emotions....love, laughter, joy and family.....only to throw the soul into a lake of fire for eternity because he was as flawed as you knew he would be....well, that's just plain evil from my point of view.

That very thing was one of the major obstacles I had to having faith in God. The Christian message of "only through Jesus" and eternal damnation just didn't jive with a merciful God. The odds are stilted against you if you're born into, say, a Hindu family vs being born into a Christian family.

I like things to be logical, although I accept that what I like is largely irrelevant. I'm also not insistent upon things being literal. We understand the world through analogy and representation, making the unknown more familiar as we expand our knowledge. I mean, I really have no idea what an electron is. What actually is a "negative" charge? It's just a device we use to understand something that at it's most basic level we don't really understand.

Islam makes more sense to me. There is still a penalty for sin, but you suffer it yourself. Good acts are rewarded as well as faith and adherence to the laws. To be cast into Hell forever you would have to be devoid of not only faith, but of charity, good acts, etc. Hell is more like a jail sentence. You do your time to offset the bad you've done, then it's over. You don't earn your way in via good deeds directly, but good deeds please God and pleasing God is how you get in. Being appropriately thankful for the blessings you have (ie health, freedom, friends) is good. Protecting the weak is good. Being charitable is good. Even being charitable to animals counts (hadiths on getting credit from God for birds eating seeds from trees you've planted, of the fellow who took pity on a thirsty dog and gave it water by climbing into a well, filling his shoe, and letting the dog drink from the shoe, etc.) So it's quite possible to be the "wrong" religion, but still please God and not be doomed to eternal torment.

The things Mohammed said that most angered God were things that were bad for society.

Volume 3, Book 40, Number 557:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "There are three types of people whom Allah will neither talk to, nor look at, on the Day of Resurrection. (They are):

1. A man who takes an oath falsely that he has been offered for his goods so much more than what he is given,

2. a man who takes a false oath after the 'Asr prayer in order to grab a Muslim's property, and

3. a man who with-holds his superfluous water. Allah will say to him, "Today I will with-hold My Grace from you as you with-held the superfluity of what you had not created."

Volume 3, Book 36, Number 470:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Allah said, 'I will be an opponent to three types of people on the Day of Resurrection:

1. One who makes a covenant in My Name, but proves treacherous;

2. One who sells a free person and eats his price; and

3. One who employs a laborer and takes full work from him but does not pay him for his lab our.' "

I don't know that anyone would argue that lies, cheating in business, etc. is good for society. Even if you don't believe in a literal God, there's an argument to be made that adhering to these laws makes Earth a bit more Paradise and a bit less Hell, increasing the good of mankind.

So, let's say you don't have faith but you are charitable, you don't screw over your fellow man, etc. and your good acts balance out your evil acts by any amount, you will not be left in Hell for eternity, again even assuming a literal reading. 21:47 makes that clear.

"On the Day of Judgment, We shall set up scales of justice so that no one will be dealt with unjustly in any way; even if someone has an act as small as a grain of a mustard seed, We will bring it to account, and sufficient are We to settle the accounts." - The Holy Quran, 21:47

Some schools also believe prophets and saints can intervene with God for people they choose to, although some schools believe that this can only be done with those God is already pleased with you and will be of no account if he is angry. That's getting a bit out off topic, I suppose, and again there are certainly disagreements. The main take away is faith is important, but choosing "the right faith" out of many is not the only way.

 

[OutdoorDad]

When I get totally disgusted at what Sunni and Sheite Muslims are willing to do to each other on a daily basis, I try to remind myself of all the murders that have been committed within Christianity.

My days of arguing on my front porch, if salvation comes from works or faith are over.

Work out your own salvation, with fear and trembling in your heart.

Christians and Muslims should both know that scripture. And understand that "your" salvation may not be the same as mine.


God bless you all for the pure spirit you are bringing to this conversation.