License, registration.....and religious status?

[BehindBlueI's]

When I get totally disgusted at what Sunni and Sheite Muslims are willing to do to each other on a daily basis, I try to remind myself of all the murders that have been committed within Christianity.

Religion, government, wealth, even physical strength, some folks will inevitably do evil with it despite most using it responsibly and for the good of themselves and their community. It is the nature of mankind that a certain amount of corruption is inevitable. We can only hope to do more good to outweigh it.

It's unfortunate, though, that those who do evil tend to get the press. Priests who diddle children are front page news. Priests who humbly serve those in need...well, that's not news.

 

[Denny347]

Right now you lack conclusive evidence to refute God, and you are staking your immortal soul on your conclusion. I would rather me be wrong and you be right. The consequences are not that bad for me if I'm wrong.

So should I pretend that I believe? Is that enough to "hedge my bet" in the afterlife? That is not how evidence works. Those making a claim to something's existence bears the burden of proof.

 

[Lowe0]

So should I pretend that I believe? Is that enough to "hedge my bet" in the afterlife? That is not how evidence works. Those making a claim to something's existence bears the burden of proof.

The funny thing about Pascal's Wager is that it requires one to presume that an omniscient being cannot tell the difference between legitimate faith and hedging one's bet.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Ok.

I see it from your side.

I wish you guys would at least try to see things from our side once in awhile...it's like marrying a woman and finding out her whole family is vegan.

It gets old..

We have, it's in the Bible:

Luke 16:19-31 the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[PaulF]

We have, it's in the Bible:

Luke 16:19-31 the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

I, for one, would listen to Lazarus. Or Jesus.

Neither will talk to me.

On a separate note...nice to see you, where the heck have you been?

 

[Lowe0]

I, for one, would listen to Lazarus. Or Jesus.

Neither will talk to me.

I'm reminded of a line from Neal Stephenson's Anathem:

"That's funny because if anyone actually did prove the existence of God we'd just tell him 'nice proof, Fraa Bly' and start believing in God."

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I, for one, would listen to Lazarus. Or Jesus.

Would you? Why? Without faith, they are charlatans, insane, etc.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

So should I pretend that I believe? Is that enough to "hedge my bet" in the afterlife? That is not how evidence works. Those making a claim to something's existence bears the burden of proof.

Hypocrisy isn't good, so I would say no. I would also just say faith isn't binary. I don't think there is anyone who never doubts.

In addition, if God is infinite, God cannot be contained by our ideas and definitions. It is possible to disbelieve in a particular manifestation or analogy, but impossible to disbelieve in all.

 

[steveh_131]

I see no practical difference between what I wrote and what you wrote.

Specifically your statement that we are 'worthless'. We are not. We are sinful, and that inherently separates us from God. But we were worth enough for Him to suffer as he did. I'd say we are worth quite a lot to Him.

I'm sorry, I just can't shut my brain off like that. To worship something that I can't possibly understand, because a centuries old book tells me to.

If there was a God capable of creating the universe and capable of creating you and the moral code that you use to call him evil, is it such a stretch to think that maybe we can't fully understand him?

I haven't shut off my brain. The reality for me is that I've seen the evidence that there is a God and I have had a relationship with Him. I have seen the change He made in me and in my life. I have read His book, which I find to be 100% convincing.

I suppose that's the essence of faith....to shut up and just believe. If I am wrong in the end, hopefully I will be forgiven for thinking like the flawed creature that I was created to be. I don't hold out much hope for that, though. To create a being with life and emotions....love, laughter, joy and family.....only to throw the soul into a lake of fire for eternity because he was as flawed as you knew he would be....

Faith isn't just to 'shut up and believe'. I believe in God based on the evidence available to me. Faith tells me that the God that I worship isn't evil, but kind and loving. Faith tells me that He has a plan that, while it may not make sense to me from my VERY limited perspective, will ultimately end up being perfectly just and fair.

well, that's just plain evil from my point of view.

What, exactly, is your point of view? You've known what, a couple hundred people? Out of how many that have existed? You've experienced a fraction of time so small that it doesn't even make a ripple in the pool of history. You've seen such a small amount of the world in such small segments of time that your perspective is like that of an ant under my porch.

Our perspective, as human beings, is so limited that I simply can't expect to grasp the big picture enough to tell an all-powerful God that he is in the wrong, based on the moral code that he ingrained in me but that I still can't follow for a single day of my life.

Jesus and libertarianism are polar opposites.

I strongly disagree. Jesus taught personal responsibility in all things. He never once encouraged people to use the state to achieve our Christian duties.

 

[MisterChester]

It seems like, IMO, problems arise from how literal the holy book is taken.

 

[indiucky]

Jesus and libertarianism are polar opposites.

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.."

You either know nothing about Christ or nothing about Libertarianism...

Never quit studying...If you reach a moment where you think you can make a statement like that and actually be correct you are still on your journey....

 

[indiucky]

So should I pretend that I believe? Is that enough to "hedge my bet" in the afterlife? That is not how evidence works. Those making a claim to something's existence bears the burden of proof.

No sir...

Neither side can "prove" they are right...There is enough evidence for a reasonable person to believe or not believe....Which brings us to free will.....There is enough evidence out there to make either case..

Many Atheists will make that claim..That believers somehow have to "prove" what they believe while the Atheist is given a free pass on having to prove anything...(Short response is it's not very scientific to make a claim that can't be proven..I.E. One can't "prove" there is no God, so by their very claim they are straying away from scientific doctrine) Dawkins pulls that but neither Gillette nor Hitchens do..They are truly intellectually honest Atheists like Paulf and Jamil on here..Dawkins isn't worthy to carry Paulf or jamils dirty linen...

IMHO

 

[trucker777]

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.."

You either know nothing about Christ or nothing about Libertarianism...

Never quit studying...If you reach a moment where you think you can make a statement like that and actually be correct you are still on your journey....

Maybe he meant "Liberalism"?

 

[Woobie]

So should I pretend that I believe? Is that enough to "hedge my bet" in the afterlife? That is not how evidence works. Those making a claim to something's existence bears the burden of proof.

Perhaps I'm wording that poorly. I'm not really talking about taking any bets. I'm trying to say a couple of things, and I didn't communicate them well.

1. No one is operating with all the information. So to think you deny God because of your enlightenment is deluded, just as one who claims to know everything about God is deluded. You are simply taking some things at face value and denying others. I am accepting certain things by faith.

2. I have full confidence in Jesus Christ. There is no doubt there. That leaves me with a sad reality: there are many who are missing out big time. How much better for them if they were correct, and I am as a delusional as Jesus must have been to claim the things he did and not be right? But deep down I have no doubt in Him.

You are correct, a wager is no faith at all, and could never be. "Pascal's wager", while silly on its face, can be used as a way of communicating the consequences of being wrong to those who are so sure in their denial. You say ours is the burden of proof. I use that bit of rhetoric to ask you not to be so careless with your decision because someone else hasn't met your standard for proof. If you arrest someone, and they are certainly guilty, but the prosecutor, having the burden of proof, fails to satisfy one jurors mind that he has met the burden of proof, is the accused then innocent of actually committing the crime? They are not guilty in the eyes of our legal system, but they really just got away with one. So too, the Truth is unchanged, regardless of who is convinced and who is not.

 

[Route 45]

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.."

You either know nothing about Christ or nothing about Libertarianism...

I see no mention of Christ in that line from the Declaration of Independence. Or in any founding document. Only a creator. Some of the founding fathers were rather hostile to Christianity.
Perhaps you should keep studying as well.

 

[trucker777]

Religion is such a personal thing. There are as many opinions about religion as there are people. I know what I believe... Jesus Christ is Lord, he is the way the truth and the life to which every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.

 

[Lowe0]

No sir...

Neither side can "prove" they are right...There is enough evidence for a reasonable person to believe or not believe....Which brings us to free will.....There is enough evidence out there to make either case..

Many Atheists will make that claim..That believers somehow have to "prove" what they believe while the Atheist is given a free pass on having to prove anything...(Short response is it's not very scientific to make a claim that can't be proven..I.E. One can't "prove" there is no God, so by their very claim they are straying away from scientific doctrine) Dawkins pulls that but neither Gillette nor Hitchens do..They are truly intellectually honest Atheists like Paulf and Jamil on here..Dawkins isn't worthy to carry Paulf or jamils dirty linen...

IMHO

You don't have to prove that God doesn't exist; I admit that I don't know either way, and have no intention of asserting one way or another. But that's apparently enough to merit infinite torture anyway.

 

[Denny347]

No sir...

Neither side can "prove" they are right...There is enough evidence for a reasonable person to believe or not believe....Which brings us to free will.....There is enough evidence out there to make either case..

Many Atheists will make that claim..That believers somehow have to "prove" what they believe while the Atheist are given a free pass on having to prove anything...Dawkins pulls that but neither Gillette nor Hitchens do..They are truly intellectually honest Atheists like Paulf and Jamil on here..Dawkins isn't worthy to carry Paulf or jamils dirty linen...

IMHO

Indeed? Where has it been? Do not forget Sam Harris, one of my favorites. I do like them all though.

 

[indiucky]

I see no mention of Christ in that line from the Declaration of Independence. Or in any founding document. Only a creator. Some of the founding fathers were rather hostile to Christianity.
Perhaps you should keep studying as well.

The teachings of Christ are consistent with the principles all men being equal...No need to tell me to keep studying...I will do that until the day I die..Even if blinded I will get books on tape...

 

[steveh_131]

Indeed? Where has it been? Do not forget Sam Harris, one of my favorites. I do like them all though.

I've seen enough evidence to believe. You haven't seen it. I don't think either of us is unreasonable.