License, registration.....and religious status?

[Woobie]

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. …

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

You choose your path. But you're either walking on His path or your not. If you stand at the crossroads, just know you will eventually start walking one path or the other.

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I —
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

John 3:17-18
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[PaulF]

I've seen enough evidence to believe. You haven't seen it. I don't think either of us is unreasonable.

Well written, Steve...and the crux of the issue, I think.

/thread.

 

[Route 45]

I've seen enough evidence to believe. You haven't seen it. I don't think either of us is unreasonable.

I guess it all boils down to what you consider evidence.

 

[Woobie]

Well written, Steve...and the crux of the issue, I think.

/thread.

Agreed

 

[Denny347]

I guess it all boils down to what you consider evidence.

yup

 

[indiucky]

Indeed? Where has it been? Do not forget Sam Harris, one of my favorites. I do like them all though.

It's out there denny...If you ever really want to look at the evidence I can point you to some scientists, mathematicians, philosophers etc...That make a reasonable argument for the existence of something larger than ourselves....

Only if you are comfortable with me doing that...

I have no problem reading the works of atheists and I think in order for an atheist to be comfortable with their faith they should also study the works of intellectuals and scientists who believe...

IMHO..

Funny..I spent all of this time typing this out to not sound offensive and steveh said it all in one sentence without being offensive...Well put steveh..

 

[Dead Duck]

Guys-
Just open your heart and let Him do the rest.
The love will saturate your life. Evidence or not, you'll just know.

Come on in, the waters fine...




But remember.... Closed mind = Closed heart.

 

[phylodog]

Come on in, the waters fine...

 

[Woobie]

I guess it all boils down to what you consider evidence.

Well, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Now that might look like a strange definition of evidence, but it also gives us a different perspective on exactly what faith really is. It isn't just blind acceptance. And evidence can be more than just 9mm brass and DNA.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I, for one, would listen to Lazarus. Or Jesus.

Neither will talk to me.

On a separate note...nice to see you, where the heck have you been?

Thanks, I have been around but I mostly lurk since I don't have the time to devote to the old long and drawn out discussions so I end up writing out a big post and then deleting it before hitting send. I do manage a few drive by posts though

Regarding your comment of listening to Jesus or Lazarus if they spoke to you but they do not I believe that is the exact point of the Scripture I posted. The Bible is literally the Living Word of God himself directly to us and those that choose to disregard it (as so many do and are allowed to do via free-will) will not be swayed by directly witnessing miracles with their own eyes.

I will give you a few more examples to show you what I mean from a Believer's perspective:

John 1:1-14

John 1:1-14New International Version (NIV)

The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

So taking this for what it means, Jesus was sent to Earth to be our sacrifice. He came as the Word of God (literally) since Jesus not only is God but everything he said during his time on Earth was literally God speaking directly to us. Jesus is completely and 100% synonymous with the Word of God, which is written down as the Holy Bible. Jesus is quite literally talking directly to you from the pages written down thousands of years ago.

John 14

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?" 6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. 7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."…

Jesus is reiterating that he himself is literally God and the same person. He is also referencing a quote from Exodus where God chooses a name for himself to be called by Moses to the Israelites.

Moses at the Burning Bush
…13Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?" 14God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" 15God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations.…

 

[LPMan59]

 

[Denny347]

Quoted....just because.

 

[LPMan59]

 

[steveh_131]

Yes, a great retort for everybody whose only reasoning for the validity of the Bible is a verse in the Bible.

 

[LPMan59]

Lots of em out there, fo sho

 

[level.eleven]

Well written, Steve...and the crux of the issue, I think.

/thread.

I disagree. Personal revelation isn't evidence. Evidence is testable and falsifiable.

I see where you want to make nice. I would recommend you don't do so at the expense of language. Steve has no evidence. Let us not distort the definition of that word.

 

[PaulF]

I disagree. Personal revelation isn't evidence. Evidence is testable and falsifiable.

I see where you want to make nice. I would recommend you don't do so at the expense of language. Steve has no evidence. Let us not distort the definition of that word.

This is where even you and I can disagree. While I understand what you write about evidence, I didn't write that to "make nice".

Experience is powerful. While personal experience cannot be expected to chance someone else's mind, I certainly understand how it could change the mind of the beholder.

Look, if God came to me and said "Paul, it's real. As illogical and improbable as it sounds, it's really, really real. Do these things, or suffer the consequences"...man, I'd be on board.

But that experience doesn't carry over from someone else...that just sounds, well...crazy.

That's what I meant.

 

[level.eleven]

This is where even you and I can disagree. While I understand what you write about evidence, I didn't write that to "make nice".

Experience is powerful. While personal experience cannot be expected to chance someone else's mind, I certainly understand how it could change the mind of the beholder.

Look, if God came to me and said "Paul, it's real. As illogical and improbable as it sounds, it's really, really real. Do these things, or suffer the consequences"...man, I'd be on board.

But that experience doesn't carry over from someone else...that just sounds, well...crazy.

That's what I meant.

This is where I think you are giving too much ground. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed had the exact same personal experience as Steve. The beholder is delusional. Personal experience carrying over to others is the definition of religion, else they wouldn't have a clue about the experience. Or, experiences would be competing and we would see an even distribution of experiences depending largley on geography, religions. We do. No one comes to Jesus in India unless someone sells them their own thoughts. Evidence be damned.

This is an aside but I saw Karen Armstrong recommended upthread. Please read the academic review of her works before buying in.

ETA: Theses discussions are difficult to have via print. We could be saying the same thing but teasing out minutiae will always prove to be difficult.

 

[level.eleven]

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.."

You either know nothing about Christ or nothing about Libertarianism...

Never quit studying...If you reach a moment where you think you can make a statement like that and actually be correct you are still on your journey....

You cherry-picked a post.

This is the last time I will engage you in this thread. Honesty matters.

 

[IndyDave1776]

This is where even you and I can disagree. While I understand what you write about evidence, I didn't write that to "make nice".

Experience is powerful. While personal experience cannot be expected to chance someone else's mind, I certainly understand how it could change the mind of the beholder.

Look, if God came to me and said "Paul, it's real. As illogical and improbable as it sounds, it's really, really real. Do these things, or suffer the consequences"...man, I'd be on board.

But that experience doesn't carry over from someone else...that just sounds, well...crazy.

That's what I meant.

In spite of having reached the opposite conclusion, I can easily understand your perspective. I will also throw in a comment from Major John Plaster, who served in special forces in Vietnam and still runs a sniper school. Don't hold me to absolutely precise repetition, but his comment (while discussing a particularly irritating encounter with the North Vietnamese) was that communism and religion have in common that their adherents are often their worst advertising. I have found this particularly true with people who overplay personal experiences, especially when addressing some seriously minuscule issues, and getting indignant when you aren't willing to accept their experience vicariously.