Chip, you are truly a breed apart in this world. I wish there were more people with the intellectual discipline that you possess...including myself. I fear that too many people fall victim to the "cult of personality" that guys like this present.
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Fanatical religious terrorist incident Colorado Springs.
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Chip, you are truly a breed apart in this world. I wish there were more people with the intellectual discipline that you possess...including myself. I fear that too many people fall victim to the "cult of personality" that guys like this present.
No, it's not the No True Scotsman fallacy. The man preached beliefs that are directly contradictory to Christian doctrine, and acted in ways that are also directly contradictory to Christian doctrine.
It isn't his most recent act that is the determining factor; it is the body of his entire past. (See the article Kut linked.)
I appreciate the thoughts, but I'm just another guy. I try to remember that The Truth Has No Agenda, and then follow wherever truth leads.
And you're right about the latter part; it's just human nature. Look at the Adolf Hitlers, the Jim Joneses, Marshall Applewhites, L. Ron Hubbards, etc. of the world. People are drawn to strong, dynamic, charismatic leaders. And because (I believe) people are desperately seeking something greater than themselves in life, such cult leaders are always more effective when they couch their cults in some perverted form of an established religion.
Actually, it does.
Belief in Jesus is all it takes to be Christian...it's called "Salvation through faith"...right?
This is one of my biggest problems with Islam and Christianity...it gives believers a GIANT loophole. No Christian or Muslim has to be responsible for for the evil they commit in this life...they are "forgiven", simply by believing in the tenets of their chosen faith.
Kill somebody? No problem...I'm "washed in the blood of the lamb"...I still get my eternal reward.
Blow up a 7-11? No Problem..."Allahu Ackbar"...72 virgins.
That isn't actually correct. Saying you have faith and demonstrating you have faith are two different things. To merely say you believe but not following the teachings of Christ will not get you where you want to go.
Belief in Jesus is not all that it takes, no. According to the Bible, even the demons "believe" in Jesus; but they reject His lordship. One must both believe AND accept His gift of salvation. Again according to the Bible, not all who profess belief in Jesus are saved, and the Bible instructs both that we must be wary of false prophets, and that we are able to discern the nature of someone by the fruit they bear.
As for belief/salvation being a "get out of jail free" card: the Bible addresses that as well. Willfully continuing to live in the same sin that one was in prior to salvation is an indication that one was never truly saved to begin with. Salvation is accompanied by a repentant, contrite, changed heart. Christians, like everyone else, will continue to sin and to make mistakes; we're still human, after all. But God judges the heart.
(I don't want to get too much deeper, unless you want me to go into full-on sermon mode.)
chipbennett said:
Chip, I really appreciate the response. As a non-believer, though, it rings rather hollow...unfortunately, as interesting as this branch of the discussion is, it is WAY off-topic, and I don't want to be accused of derailing the thread again.
This might be an excellent conversation if we ever get to have a conversation face-to-face, though!
Again, I really appreciate the thoughtful and thorough response!
Chip, I really appreciate the response. As a non-believer, though, it rings rather hollow...unfortunately, as interesting as this branch of the discussion is, it is WAY off-topic, and I don't want to be accused of derailing the thread again.
This might be an excellent conversation if we ever get to have a conversation face-to-face, though!
Again, I really appreciate the thoughtful and thorough response!
If we ever get the chance to have a face-to-face conversation, I'll be happy to buy the drinks.
MisterChester
Master
What if you follow the teachings and lessons of Christ without (at least) believing his divinity?
- Jan 12, 2012
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Paul, I can understand that from your perspective, especially given your personal experiences dealing with Christianity, it would appear that way. From my perspective, or that of anyone taking a correct view of Christianity from the inside in the proper understanding of Christian doctrine, the bolded section is like saying, "I believe in a centrally controlled economy, no private ownership of property or means of production, elections in which only one name is on the ballot, and people being compelled by law to do the 'right' things, but by god I am a free-market capitalist and a believer in a free democratic government."
indiucky
Grandmaster
Because then you would have to accept the fact that He was the most awesome street magician ever with a messianic complex bordering on being a psychopath...None of the 32 non Biblical accounts of His time here on earth I have read has given me any indication that He was that....
As a side note "The Prodigal Son" theme has had an unprecedented run in literature and later in film for the last 2,000 years....If you don't accept the Divinity of Christ then you have to accept that (arguably) one of the greatest plot lines in the history of literature and film was written off the cuff by an unemployed carpenter or a former tax collector for the Romans...
IMHO believing that requires blind faith which I am not a believer in....I go with the Divine Christ because all historical evidence points to these miracles taking place...(The debate among people at the time was "how" He was able to perform these miracles...Not "if"....."If" did not come into play until much later....)
If you continue on the path of following the lessons and teachings of Jesus Christ you will eventually get to that "sweet surrender" point of "I was blind but now I see" and find yourself acting all goofy like the rest of us believers do.....It happens...Believe me....
indiucky
Grandmaster
Paul you and I have spoken about the more mean spirited Atheists out there...How you and I both think they are not really good for debate and come across as a little grandiose and a wee bit full of themselves....
As all Atheists should not be tainted because of the way Dawkins behaves then nor should Christians (or other believers of something "outside the box"....) be tainted by the actions of a youtube Preacher calling for destruction..... This is just my opinion.....
I think as science brings us closer to understanding human life and when it begins the Abortion debate will (at minimum) get to the place where folks can agree that late term abortions are kind of mean, cruel and kind of demeaning to humanity....
I turn to science and it's study of God's work for answers and science usually catches up to religion eventually (The acceptance of the Big Bang Theory and the acknowledgement of the holes in Darwin's Theory by a number of physicists as well as micro biologists immediately come to mind)....) It will in this debate as well I am sure....Have a little faith in the folks in the white lab coats....
[video=youtube;E9TMwfkDwIY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9TMwfkDwIY[/video]
Here is an example of an intellectually honest Atheist at his best...RIP Christopher.....
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MisterChester
Master
Because then you would have to accept the fact that He was the most awesome street magician ever with a messianic complex bordering on being a psychopath...None of the 32 non Biblical accounts of His time here on earth I have read has given me any indication that He was that....
As a side note "The Prodigal Son" theme has had an unprecedented run in literature and later in film for the last 2,000 years....If you don't accept the Divinity of Christ then you have to accept that (arguably) one of the greatest plot lines in the history of literature and film was written off the cuff by an unemployed carpenter or a former tax collector for the Romans...
IMHO believing that requires blind faith which I am not a believer in....I go with the Divine Christ because all historical evidence points to these miracles taking place...(The debate among people at the time was "how" He was able to perform these miracles...Not "if"....."If" did not come into play until much later....)
If you continue on the path of following the lessons and teachings of Jesus Christ you will eventually get to that "sweet surrender" point of "I was blind but now I see" and find yourself acting all goofy like the rest of us believers do.....It happens...Believe me....
IMO Christ was a flesh and blood man who was a son of God just like you and me. As to his divinity, I don't really know. But no doubt many of his teachings are things that both believers and non-believers should follow. As to miracles same thing, I don't know. Many things can be described as miraculous but that's more subjective than anything.
Bible tells us over and over again that faith in Christ is necessary to get to Heaven. He is The Way.
Lots of good people aren't Christian. Christians, however, believe faith is necessary to reach Heaven, not just being good.
But living an impure life reflects that a person's faith is not genuine. In Paul's letter to the Ephesians, he says
[Ephesians 5New International Version (NIV)]
5 1 Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.... 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
So while the Christian will sin, will slip, will fall to temptation, etc, for a believer to willingly do these things believing you have a "get out of jail free" card through faith will not lead to inheritance in the Kingdom. "Salvation through faith" concept is counter to the idea of works-based faiths... salvation by doing so many good deeds or pilgrimages or whatever. But to think "I believe, therefore I can continue to do xyz" misses the mark. That's different than "I screwed up, forgive me!"
Mr. Dear has a chance at the Kingdom still, if he is truly repentant for his actions. If he feels justified in his actions and gives lip service to being sorry, saying "it's all good because I believe in Christ," that won't cut it.
IMO
-rvb
edit: here is the passage I was looking for
“For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”
**Hebrews *10:26-27 *ESV
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- Jan 12, 2012
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You have to accept on of only two choices here: Christ is divine, or Christ was mentally unstable/delusional. When he declared, "I am", that was a direct statement of being God.
indiucky
Grandmaster
Me neither...That's why I turn to the witnesses that were there and the descriptions they gave of the events...IMHO a true "miracle" would be an unemployed Jewish carpenter being the most written about Man of His age having not performed Miracles....He said He was the Son of God and He had to back that up...Raising the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine and hosting the largest fish fry in history with a couple of fish and a couple of loaves of bread was what worked for the folks at that time...And fortunately we had folks around that were willing to record the events....
Yes and no. I'm sure the shooter and probably a handful of people believe that he is a Christian, so in that respect, yes. But Christianity is really defined by the New Testament. I can imagine that a guy who pulls a baby out of a burning building is consistent with what the NT describes is how followers of Jesus should act. The guy who shoots up the place, not so much. So in that respect, no, it's not the same as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy because, human failure and hypocrisy notwithstanding, there is a clear and less ambiguous definition.
What we're talking about is no different from any other "end justifies the means" mentality, religious or not. Two people can believe the same thing but the more strongly one believes the end justifies the means, the greater atrocity will the one justify to achieve an end. A belief that opposes abortion isn't the root cause of this violence.
The root cause was the willingness to do violence to achieve one's goals. That means justification mentality is not bound to religion. There aren't any loopholes, there is only rationalizing and self-justification, which plagues everyone to different degrees. Bottom line, religion or not, the root cause is more pathological than it is belief.
The problem I see in the national discourse is that ideological opponents of Christianity are using this horrific act to suggest that Christians and anyone else who opposes abortion own this incident. But that's a fallacy. The dude, himself, only him, he owns every bit of it.
But that's a sort of lesson I hope everyone thinks about when condemning a whole group for the actions of a few. Not all Atheists are Stalin. Not all Muslims are radical terrorists. Not all anti-abortionists are Dear.
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We're moving the goalposts. All I'm saying is the title of the thread is appropriate. Whether he completely adhered to the tenets of Christianity or not (obviously not), his fanatical motivations were at least partly based on his personal religious view, which he considered Christian. And his action was an act of terror, lone wolf or not.
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