Why not?

[Bill of Rights]

Hi Bill,

As you know, I went to one. I thoroughly enjoyed it, and made Rifleman.

I've been wanting to get back. However, I lost my job due to the census in that nursing home being down, and the one that was supposed to be waiting for me, wasn't. So I'm still looking.

When I was working at that place, I couldn't get the weekend off.

Hopefully things will ease up soon. I really want to get to another.

Josh

Sorry to hear that, Josh. There is the shoot at Waterman, IL on 9/11-12. If you've been to a shoot before, you can go to that one for only the ($10?) range fee and cost of your ammo and gas to get there. If you need someone to vouch for you having been to an Appleseed before, I will be pleased to do so. See the thread in this forum on the Waterman shoot for more info.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[USMC_0311]

OK, so for those of you who have not yet attended a full Appleseed, I'm curious to know why not.

There will be a poll on this thread momentarily, but if you have multiple answers or if the answer you would give is "other", please post a note and explain. We want the program to reach as many people as possible. If we're not reaching you, it would help to know why.

Thanks for your help and as always,

Blessings,
Bill

I have not been to an appleseed yet. I have talked about going but it has not been a priority. Here is couple of things as to why it has not.

1. Lack of challenge or at least the preception of the challenge. 25 yrds is good to get a zero but wind and distance play major factors in real life. I have seen appleseed shooters shoot at 200,300,500 yards and struggle at highpower matches.

2. There are lot of expereinced shooters out there that are quickly turned off because of a condensending preception that we have to shoot an appleseed to be any good. Maybe an advanced appleseed would attract more of these types.

3. Cost. Whats good for one should be good for all. I have heard of exceptions being made to some people that otherwise would have to pay.

4. I understand what you are trying to do and attract more shooters. It seems you are more focused on new shooters. Thats good and if thats the goal no problem.

If you want to attract more experinced shooters I think you need to come up with a way to cater to them just a little. They like challenges, competition, and they want to get the most out of their shooting/training dollars.

Now that being said I still plan on bringing my son to one. Hopefully one that BoR and ATM are working and that is probably the driving force behind my motivation or lack of.

 

[ATM]

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.

1. Lack of challenge or at least the preception of the challenge. 25 yrds is good to get a zero but wind and distance play major factors in real life. I have seen appleseed shooters shoot at 200,300,500 yards and struggle at highpower matches.

25 meters saves tons of time walking back and forth to the target line all day and is sufficient for all the fundamentals except target detection, range estimation, trajectory and wind compensation. However, we are squeezing more of the latter into regular Appleseeds now. It is different than a competition match but allows for good crossover of essential skills.
(and struggling has gone both ways.<--friendliest of pokes )

2. There are lot of expereinced shooters out there that are quickly turned off because of a condensending preception that we have to shoot an appleseed to be any good. Maybe an advanced appleseed would attract more of these types.

Hopefully, that is just misperception. There is no room for egos here.
We're all Americans and share the same proud yet personally humbling heritage.
The advanced Appleseed is a week long Rifleman Boot Camp.

3. Cost. Whats good for one should be good for all. I have heard of exceptions being made to some people that otherwise would have to pay.

There is some discretion, but as a not-for-profit volunteer organization, someone has to help pay for the targets, shirts, etc. for the women, youth and active military. Sometimes, journalists or public officials are waived to suit further goals of the mission. We do offer more than just marksmanship.

4. I understand what you are trying to do and attract more shooters. It seems you are more focused on new shooters. Thats good and if thats the goal no problem.

That's a goal but not nearly the primary. We'd actually like to save the nation, which requires way more than just the current shooters (many of which won't even show up.) It will take everyone we can reach.

If you want to attract more experinced shooters I think you need to come up with a way to cater to them just a little. They like challenges, competition, and they want to get the most out of their shooting/training dollars.

It's tough to personally challenge them without coming off as condescending.( see #2) But once there, they can usually challenge themselves pretty well even with our easy AQTs.

Now that being said I still plan on bringing my son to one. Hopefully one that BoR and ATM are working and that is probably the driving force behind my motivation or lack of.

I certainly look forward to seeing you and your son on the line.

 

[AuntieBellum]

The advanced Appleseed is a week long Rifleman Boot Camp.

Boot Camp Info on RWVA.org

The link above is to the general info. Use the Boot Camp drop down box at the top of the page to find the Boot Camp schedule, what to bring list, etc.

 

[mconley]

Do they allow 5.56 at the 25m shoot?

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

There are two things that turn me of about an Appleseed shoot .

They always seem to be out in BFE and are limited to .22 .

As large as the program is , I don't understand why a shoot isn't held closer to Indy or why your stuck with a .22 .

The military doesn't teach / train you with a .22 then hand you a service rifle , so why does Appleseed limit their shoots to .22 ?

 

[ATM]

Caliber is not an Appleseed limitation.

A few ranges are limited to .22 only but most allow for centerfire and it is very common.

 

[Bubba]

There are two things that turn me of about an Appleseed shoot .

They always seem to be out in BFE and are limited to .22 .

Appleseeds are not. 22 specific. Some ranges put limitations on the allowed calibers, but the "official" position is that calibers from .22 through 8mm are allowed. As far as ranges go, I see you are claiming Indy's west side as a location. There was a mini on the west side of Indy at MCF&G on July 3, and there are events almost every month at Cloverdale, 2 miles off the interstate 30 minutes west of the airport.

 

[AuntieBellum]

There are two things that turn me of about an Appleseed shoot .

They always seem to be out in BFE and are limited to .22 .

We have had at least one mini at Marion County Fish and Game, so keep an eye open for another one there. And, there are many shoots at Cloverdale, which a quick look at Google Maps tells me can be no more than 50 miles away from you if you're on the west side of Indy. A little bit of a drive, but I drive 50 miles to the closest major shopping area (you know, Super Walmart, Target, mall, restaurants, etc) and 100 + miles to the closest Appleseeds.

If you are interested, maybe post up a thread asking for someone to carpool with you to Cloverdale? I don't drive through Indy to get there, but someone could certainly be coming from your direction.

Edit: Apparently Bubba has nothing better to do at work today and beat me to my answer.

 

[ATM]

^ Have you two been introduced?

 

[USMC_0311]

25 meters saves tons of time walking back and forth to the target line all day and is sufficient for all the fundamentals except target detection, range estimation, trajectory and wind compensation. However, we are squeezing more of the latter into regular Appleseeds now. It is different than a competition match but allows for good crossover of essential skills.
(and struggling has gone both ways.<--friendliest of pokes )

Thats quite a list of exceptions after the blue. I wouldn't know anything about the struggle going both ways.

Hopefully, that is just misperception. There is no room for egos here.
We're all Americans and share the same proud yet personally humbling heritage.

I have heard from other folks the same misperception. I am sure it is just a misperception but that doesn't help you any. The only way we can know differently is to go but then there's that mispercetion thing.

The advanced Appleseed is a week long Rifleman Boot Camp.

A whole week at 25 yards? Oh boy

There is some discretion, but as a not-for-profit volunteer organization, someone has to help pay for the targets, shirts, etc. for the women, youth and active military. Sometimes, journalists or public officials are waived to suit further goals of the mission. We do offer more than just marksmanship.

So the women, children, military or others invited with descretion are reaping the benifits of us paying a higher then necessary fee. Why not one nice low price? Kinda like our current political system, obamaseed?.
I know why just don't necessary agree. I shoot several matches a year and one of the biggest concerns on the line is the cost and benifit received. Award money or other motivators help sell the cost.
Offering discounts instead of totally giving away may help.

That's a goal but not nearly the primary. We'd actually like to save the nation, which requires way more than just the current shooters (many of which won't even show up.) It will take everyone we can reach..

This needs more explaination. Save the nation from what?, do I have go to find out.

It's tough to personally challenge them without coming off as condescending.( see #2) But once there, they can usually challenge themselves pretty well even with our easy AQTs.

and yet they are challenged quite frequently to go to other matches or training events.
For an actively competitive highpower expert or higher the AQT is quite easy. I doubt appleseed was started with these people in mind. I do think it's a great opportunity for a new shooter.

I certainly look forward to seeing you and your son on the line.

You forgot I will be waiting in the car.

 

[Bubba]

^ Have you two been introduced?

I dunno but she sounds cute.

 

[AuntieBellum]

^ Have you two been introduced?

Maybe I'll go look him up. Sounds like an okay guy...

Oh, wait, back to the topic at hand...

A whole week at 25 yards? Oh boy

Nope. Check out the link I posted after ATM's post. (Boot Camps)
The Rifleman Boot Camp starts out at 25 yards with .22s, moves to centerfire (or shoot all 1200-1500 rounds with centerfire, your choice), and then to longer distances up through several hundred yards. So I've been told. I hope to confirm this for you personally in November.

So the women, children, military or others invited with descretion are reaping the benifits of us paying a higher then necessary fee. Why not one nice low price? Kinda like our current political system, obamaseed?.
I know why just don't necessary agree. I shoot several matches a year and one of the biggest concerns on the line is the cost and benifit received. Award money or other motivators help sell the cost.
Offering discounts instead of totally giving away may help.

In my experience thus far, I've found myself far in the minority at most Appleseeds. While the offer is there, frankly not nearly as many women and children attend (I can't tell military from non-military without actually checking them in myself) as do grown men, even with the offer of free. The last mini I was at I was the only woman and there was one 19 year old there. First Appleseed I went to, I was the only woman who stayed the entire weekend (although several of the instructors were women), and no children. So, even with free, women and children are often still not filling the line. That's a societal problem. Why don't they come? Because they don't feel welcome in the shooting world yet, Appleseed or highpower or otherwise. This is something for ALL of us to work on. As far as you paying more for your weekend because of it, maybe. I don't know the least bit about the finances. But, based on the numbers I've seen, I'd guess maybe you'd save $5, maybe $10 at most then if women and children were charged. And then maybe no women or children would bother coming at all, which is definitely the opposite of what Appleseed wants and would still leave you at paying the full amount.

This needs more explaination. Save the nation from what?, do I have go to find out.

From the lack of motivation that keeps us on the couch and from participating in the working of this blessed nation that our founders worked so hard to secure for us.

and yet they are challenged quite frequently to go to other matches or training events.

I have not been challenged to do so. No one has asked me to participate in a highpower match. I frankly don't have a clue as how to get started. How do I get started? Am I welcome to try?

You forgot I will be waiting in the car.

Not for long. You'll watch, and then you'll roll down the windows to hear, then sit close by, and then ask to join in.

 

[ATM]

Thats quite a list of exceptions after the blue.

Not really, when compared to the entire list of fundamentals covered, but we are squeezing some in.

I have heard from other folks the same misperception. I am sure it is just a misperception but that doesn't help you any. The only way we can know differently is to go but then there's that mispercetion thing.

We'll work on clearing it up. Those who participating in both are key to this fix.

A whole week at 25 yards? Oh boy

Nope. More time = more full distance shooting.

Award money or other motivators help sell the cost.

We have a nice patch you could earn - but it's not a handout.

This needs more explaination. Save the nation from what?, do I have go to find out.

Apathy and loss of identity as a nation among others.

and yet they are challenged quite frequently to go to other matches or training events.
For an actively competitive highpower expert or higher the AQT is quite easy. I doubt appleseed was started with these people in mind. I do think it's a great opportunity for a new shooter.

It was started with Americans in mind. (And yes, even those who can breeze through an AQT at the expert level are included.)

You forgot I will be waiting in the car.

You have no idea how loud I freaking talk.

 

[USMC_0311]

Ok I have expressed some of my concerns as well as others I have heard hopefully this will help you. Some good points from ATM and AuntieBellum. Auntie I have seen several threads where the highpower shooters have placed several invites some even specific to appleseed instructors. You know now that I have go shoot a really high score or I will be eating humble pie. Since its only 25 yards can I use my M9?

 

[ATM]

Thanks!

And no, Marines have to throw the bullets at 25.

 

[USMC_0311]

Thanks!

And no, Marines have to throw the bullets at 25.

I owe you a rep, damn rep sytem says I need to spread the wealth.

 

[AuntieBellum]

Ok I have expressed some of my concerns as well as others I have heard hopefully this will help you. Some good points from ATM and AuntieBellum. Auntie I have seen several threads where the highpower shooters have placed several invites some even specific to appleseed instructors. You know now that I have go shoot a really high score or I will be eating humble pie. Since its only 25 yards can I use my M9?

And thank you for expressing your concerns. Appleseed has no idea how to reach more people if we don't know what's keeping them from coming, so thank you for your input.

So are you going to be posting a poll now on what's keeping people from highpower? And about that invite - I'd love to try it. (I'm sure I just wasn't paying attention. I'm not an instructor, anyway, just a dedicated volunteer.) I actually purchased my M&P Pro to try out some competition, but before I really figured out how to get started, I got distracted by Appleseed.

 

[USMC_0311]

And thank you for expressing your concerns. Appleseed has no idea how to reach more people if we don't know what's keeping them from coming, so thank you for your input.

So are you going to be posting a poll now on what's keeping people from highpower? And about that invite - I'd love to try it. (I'm sure I just wasn't paying attention. I'm not an instructor, anyway, just a dedicated volunteer.) I actually purchased my M&P Pro to try out some competition, but before I really figured out how to get started, I got distracted by Appleseed.

No I don't run the high power matches and only have shot in one this year. (did a whole bunch back in the day) Lillrat or sloughfoot are the INGO high power experts (damn good shots too) and they still may be at Camp Perry yet.

 

[yellowhousejake]

No I don't run the high power matches and only have shot in one this year. (did a whole bunch back in the day) Lillrat or sloughfoot are the INGO high power experts (damn good shots too) and they still may be at Camp Perry yet.

I went at Sue's invitation last year and though we got rained out before I could shoot the full course, I managed a 96 2X sitting at 200 yards. I didn't think that was shameful considering it was the very first time I ever used the AR platform.

This year we had two instructors attend, the youngest, 13, was using her M4 and the oldest (wisest?) was using a rack grade M1. Both did well according to Litlratt.

If you have any questions about the program or the instruction, ask Sloughfoot, he's an Appleseed Instructor, as is Sue Mogle. Read what Dean had to say about Appleseed here,

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/appleseed/64414-litlratts_invitation.html

As a quick response to your concerns about us not teaching much in the way of 500 yard training, you are correct. However, knowing how to dope the wind at 500 yards will do you no good if you cannot manage your sight alignment, your sight picture, your respiratory pause, your trigger control, or your follow through.

These are all things the vast majority of shooters don't know, and many very good shooters don't know either. We teach the fundamentals, if you master those, 4MOA at 500 yards is doable. My wife, after one Appleseed, was able to hit 400 yard steel with a AR using nothing but a sling. She hit it repeatedly.

25 yard training, yea, we see a lot of shooters who have issues maintaining 15 MOA at 25 yards. It's a lot easier to spot and correct a shooter's technique when their groups are 4 inches across at 25 yards, than when they are 6 feet across at 500.

YHJ