Why not?

[Bill of Rights]

One more point occurred to me:

...
I've spent my life going to frigging meetings and wasting my time with a pack of kids who think just because they discovered it now that it's the first time any one has ever seen what ever ding a ling they happen to be holding. I've shot, I've seen people shoot, I've seen Tom Knapp shoot in person. Unless it's a blood relative putting on a show or I just happen to feel like it that day, I'm going to do what the heck I feel like doing and I don't owe ANY ONE an excuse for it.

If it looks new and shiney to to and you want to go then go. Good for ya. Have fun.

Not the first time for either "side" of our program:

Our course of fire is the Army Qualification Target. Nothing new there; it was designed for the M1 Garand when that was the Army's MBR.

Our history program centers on an April day in 1775. Hardly new.

This may be the first time the two have been put together in the same event, but I'm not sure of that.

The only thing shiny at Appleseed is the looks on the faces of people who see what they're capable of achieving with effort and perseverance, and that makes a world of difference. It's a world of fun for every instructor I know to help someone get to that point.

Different strokes for different folks, though. If it's not for you, then it's not. Whatever else you'd rather be doing will hold your attention instead.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[tnek]

Its OK I guess for someone who does not shoot a lot. I do so its not something I need.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Its OK I guess for someone who does not shoot a lot. I do so its not something I need.

Of note, our regional coordinator, Hawkhavn, had shot NRA High Power for several years and done so quite well. He's said openly that it took him a few shoots to shoot a Rifleman's score.

That said, though, the shooting is only a part of what we do. We are, as I said, an American heritage organization with a rifle marksmanship clinic.

 

[ATM]

It seems kind of basic to me....just letting you know why I have not been to one.

If Im wrong, let me know and I will sign up for one.

Its OK I guess for someone who does not shoot a lot. I do so its not something I need.

To follow up on Bill's response but only to the general idea, which is very common (not intended as a direct response):

It's often much harder for the people who shoot a lot than for first-timers who have never even held a rifle. See it all the time.

Unless the shooting has been fundamentally correct, it may have instilled habits which are hard to break.

The nature of some of these habits is that they really have made one a better shot
...and yet that very same method may just be the cause of an early performance plateau, hindering them from being the best shot they could be.

Some folks think Appleseeds cover basic rifle marksmanship. Nope.

Instruction in the fundamentals is really only basic if you are new to shooting or as a refresher to fine tune what you already practice.

It is quite eye-opening and advanced if contrary to what one thought the basics were.

 

[cosermann]

OK, so I'm confused over what a "full" AppleSeed offers then. The 1-day thing my daughter and I went to was basic (and that's fine). What's covered in the 2-day AS that's different? Is there a syllabus anywhere? The AS FAQ (on the web site) makes it sound "basic" to me:

"Did you say "basic" class?
Some may say "basic", but a better term might be foundational. The skills taught at Appleseed are Traditional American Rifleman skills that have been unique throughout the history of this country. The American Rifleman is capable of shooting a 20" target out to 500 yards, or a milk jug at 250 yards, using a standard, rack grade rifle, surplus ammo, iron sights, from field positions, this is what your forefathers were capable of. These skills transfer to any kind of shooting and while they should be considered "basic" to most Americans, they are more often seen as "advanced" by today's shooters....This is what Appleseed is trying to change."

 

[Eddie]

Its OK I guess for someone who does not shoot a lot. I do so its not something I need.

I shoot a lot. I hunt, target shoot and sometimes just shoot stuff for fun. I shot as a distinguished expert when I shot PPC. I have learned a ton from going to Appleseed and I still haven't shot a Rifleman score. They are teaching the fundamentals of marksmanship with a rifle.

Don't think just cause you shoot a lot that you can't learn something.

 

[Jack Ryan]

And MY question is why you would click on a thread clearly identified as being in the Appleseed sub-forum and be offended that the OP might assume you have some level of interest in the program.

I don't click on sub forums. I just look down the list of new posts for any thing particularly interesting and lacking that any thing particularly anoying.

 

[Jack Ryan]

If you ever decide your personal schedule aligns with a mini and want to come ridicule the program based on personal experience instead of assumptions, let me know and I'll pay whatever range fee there might be.

No intent to ridicule the program at all. The assumptions in the original post struck me as condescending, arrogant, and insulting at the time.

Given all things aligned to be convenient I'd gladly attend an Appleseed with the ASSUMPTION I'd learn something I didn't know before. It might be fun but it's not something I'd give a high priority.

 

[melensdad]

Initially I thought that Appleseed was a rifle competition, and I have no desire at this stage in my life to compete. Then as I started seeing more threads about it, and reading some of them I realized it was not a competition but rather a training event. I am intrigued by them but they seem to be few in this part of the state. So I'm going to have travel if I go to one. Then there is that whole camping thing, not gonna happen. So I need a hotel. That means I need to find an event that has a decent hotel CLOSE BY the event.

OR, I need to just go for 1 day. But while I realize that is possible I can't find out what they teach on day 1 versus day 2 or which day is better to attend if I only attend 1 day. Some of the descriptions on the website are pretty light in detail.

What is a MINI event? Is that just going to 1 day? Like I said, lots of details seem to be missing in some of the descriptions.

 

[Bigum1969]

I haven't gone because my schedule never aligns with the times they are held in my area. I also have concerns about my bad back... shooting flat on the ground is going to be a lot less than comfortable for me.

I will hopefully attend one sooner rather than later. With 8-month old twins and a demanding job, finding time can be the issue.

 

[Bubba]

No intent to ridicule the program at all. I feel the assumptions in the original post are condescending, arrogant, and insulting.

No intent to ridicule and yet it's a "wast[e] of time", a "pack of kids" playing with a new toy?

I've spent my life going to frigging meetings and wasting my time with a pack of kids who think just because they discovered it now that it's the first time any one has ever seen what ever ding a ling they happen to be holding.

If it looks new and shiney to to and you want to go then go

I don't click on sub forums. I just look down the list of new posts for any thing particularly interesting and lacking that any thing particularly anoying.

You mean that list that has "Appleseed" in nice red letters to the far right of the thread title, and again at the top of the page once you've clicked on the thread? I never said you clicked on the sub-forum itself, I said this thread was clearly marked as being in the Appleseed sub-forum. So I ask again why you (apparently) alone feel put upon that, having clicked on a thread clearly marked as Appleseed, Bill has the temerity to have put up a poll assuming you have something other than complete disinterest in the program?

I offered to pay for your range fees not because I'm some starry-eyed optimist that thinks you can't fail to be an instant convert. I did it because your online persona is grating, combative, and I don't like the way you troll this board spewing your bile on any passing thread. You've a perfect right to your own opinions, but I'd find your negativity toward Appleseed a less bitter pill if it were based on personal experience, not some need to make sweeping but unfounded statements to inflate your own self-image by bursting everyone else's bubble. The offer stands, and I hope to see you on the line at some point.

 

[Jack Ryan]

No intent to ridicule and yet it's a "wast[e] of time", a "pack of kids" playing with a new toy?


You mean that list that has "Appleseed" in nice red letters to the far right of the thread title, and again at the top of the page once you've clicked on the thread? I never said you clicked on the sub-forum itself, I said this thread was clearly marked as being in the Appleseed sub-forum. So I ask again why you (apparently) alone feel put upon that, having clicked on a thread clearly marked as Appleseed, Bill has the temerity to have put up a poll assuming you have something other than complete disinterest in the program?

I offered to pay for your range fees not because I'm some starry-eyed optimist that thinks you can't fail to be an instant convert. I did it because your online persona is grating, combative, and I don't like the way you troll this board spewing your bile on any passing thread. You've a perfect right to your own opinions, but I'd find your negativity toward Appleseed a less bitter pill if it were based on personal experience, not some need to make sweeping but unfounded statements to inflate your own self-image by bursting everyone else's bubble. The offer stands, and I hope to see you on the line at some point.

What ever. Only red letters on this page I see are the ones in your post I high lighted in red.

 

[tnek]

To follow up on Bill's response but only to the general idea, which is very common (not intended as a direct response):

It's often much harder for the people who shoot a lot than for first-timers who have never even held a rifle. See it all the time.

Unless the shooting has been fundamentally correct, it may have instilled habits which are hard to break.

The nature of some of these habits is that they really have made one a better shot
...and yet that very same method may just be the cause of an early performance plateau, hindering them from being the best shot they could be.

Some folks think Appleseeds cover basic rifle marksmanship. Nope.

Instruction in the fundamentals is really only basic if you are new to shooting or as a refresher to fine tune what you already practice.

It is quite eye-opening and advanced if contrary to what one thought the basics were.

I dont pretend to be a HighMaster but I think with a 4 power scope and a JP rifle I can get the job done. Please dont take it the wrong way. I support your goals and as far as the political side it would be preaching to the choir and if I wanted to really improve my rifle skills I would focus on classes by 3 gun shooter types. Its all about time and $$$
I think it great what you guys do.

 

[Bill of Rights]

No intent to ridicule the program at all. The assumptions in the original post struck me as condescending, arrogant, and insulting at the time.

Given all things aligned to be convenient I'd gladly attend an Appleseed with the ASSUMPTION I'd learn something I didn't know before. It might be fun but it's not something I'd give a high priority.

If you decide to come out, you will be welcome. If not, we'll continue what we're doing either way.

I haven't gone because my schedule never aligns with the times they are held in my area. I also have concerns about my bad back... shooting flat on the ground is going to be a lot less than comfortable for me.

I will hopefully attend one sooner rather than later. With 8-month old twins and a demanding job, finding time can be the issue.

If you have physical difficulties, please, please tell the shoot boss when you get there or when the problem arises. Many things we can work around, but not if we don't know there's a problem. As for the job and the twins, as I said to whiskeytangofoxtrot upthread: Demanding schedule... If you don't have time now, keep us in mind and come when you can make time to do so.

I dont pretend to be a HighMaster but I think with a 4 power scope and a JP rifle I can get the job done. Please dont take it the wrong way. I support your goals and as far as the political side it would be preaching to the choir and if I wanted to really improve my rifle skills I would focus on classes by 3 gun shooter types. Its all about time and $$$
I think it great what you guys do.

I understand what you're saying and please don't take this as nit-picky, but it's not political, it's historical. We're not involved in modern day politics. The program started in 2005-2006 under a Republican president and has grown exponentially every year. That has not changed with a Democrat occupying the office. Our focus is solely on April 19, 1775. If you don't think what we have to teach will help you, your attitude is not "teachable"; that's not an accusation or pointing of fingers, it's simply a statement of fact. A person who doesn't want to learn won't.

Initially I thought that Appleseed was a rifle competition, and I have no desire at this stage in my life to compete. Then as I started seeing more threads about it, and reading some of them I realized it was not a competition but rather a training event. I am intrigued by them but they seem to be few in this part of the state. So I'm going to have travel if I go to one. Then there is that whole camping thing, not gonna happen. So I need a hotel. That means I need to find an event that has a decent hotel CLOSE BY the event.

OR, I need to just go for 1 day. But while I realize that is possible I can't find out what they teach on day 1 versus day 2 or which day is better to attend if I only attend 1 day. Some of the descriptions on the website are pretty light in detail.

What is a MINI event? Is that just going to 1 day? Like I said, lots of details seem to be missing in some of the descriptions.

MD, up at the top of the Appleseed forum here on INGO, there is a thread defining the difference between a mini and a full shoot. Minis are not presently sponsored by national and are intended either as a refresher for skills already learned at a full Appleseed or as an introduction for those people who have not yet attended. Typically, they include the prone position and a course of fire that will teach you how to first shrink your groups, then how to move them where on the paper you want them to be. If we have time, sometimes the minis will include seated and standing shooting positions also. We don't typically cover the History of April 19, 1775 (at least not in detail) at minis since the goal is to hone skills so that the person at a full shoot will be able to concentrate more on it there. If you can only attend one day of a two-day shoot, we recommend it be Saturday. That's when we do most of our instruction with Sunday usually used for "polishing" the skills learned the previous day. Sometimes Saturday can be a little overwhelming- we liken it to taking a drink from a firehose- so with a few hours of sleep and some tylenol or advil, sometimes things fall into place and after a long day of instruction, another long day of practice lets those things learned fall into place and start making more sense.

Accomodations at a shoot: Well... if you have a camper/mobile home or can borrow/rent one, that's an option. I'm with you, I don't camp out. At Wabash last year, the local Holiday Inn was close and since the program covers some expenses when necessary, Techres and I both stayed there. If we have another shoot in Lafayette, there are hotels reasonably close. Off the top of my head, I can't tell you about hotels, decent or otherwise, at any other locations. Don't discount crossing into IL and attending a shoot there, if it's more convenient.

Additionally, as Auntie Bellum pointed out to someone else, if you have or know of land we could use for a range, get in touch with us. If the distance involved is what's keeping you from a shoot and you have a place for us to do it, we can bring the shoot to you.

Hope this helps. If you have further questions and don't want to ask them on the open board, feel free to PM me (or any of: Hawkhavn, Techres, WRWIII, Mudcat, DaveD, Sur+Rifle, YellowHouseJake, or ATM. That group includes all of the current Indiana Shoot Bosses and/or Full Instructors that are on INGO. We have quite a few knowledgeable Instructors In Training as well; I didn't include them in the above list, but if you want to contact them and happen to ask a question they don't have the answer for yet, I have confidence that they will happily point you in the direction of someone else who does.

Hope this helps!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[XtremeVel]

Not a excuse, but for some reason I had this impression that it was a club / activity for those with tricked out 10-22's. ( Nothing wrong with that, but it's further down on my " want " list) I honestly don't know where I got that it had to do with 10-22's from.

After getting just a little better idea what it might be now, it does sound like something myself, wife and son would enjoy. For us, it would come down to something close to the NE area on a weekend a typical 12 year old doesn't have one of his activities already on the calender.

Out of curiosity, we do have a 10-22 and a AR for each of us. What would be recommended for us to bring if (2) of us have never went thru anything like this before ?

 

[DHolder]

For the purpose of economy, the .22 cal. It is possible to go thru 300 rds in a weekend. Since you roll your own, the combo of .22 and .223 would work just fine.

 

[AuntieBellum]

Not a excuse, but for some reason I had this impression that it was a club / activity for those with tricked out 10-22's. ( Nothing wrong with that, but it's further down on my " want " list) I honestly don't know where I got that it had to do with 10-22's from.

After getting just a little better idea what it might be now, it does sound like something myself, wife and son would enjoy. For us, it would come down to something close to the NE area on a weekend a typical 12 year old doesn't have one of his activities already on the calender.

Out of curiosity, we do have a 10-22 and a AR for each of us. What would be recommended for us to bring if (2) of us have never went thru anything like this before ?

There have been A LOT of threads in the last couple of months asking about/showing off their 10/22s that they've made Appleseed ready. Appleseed does recommend an LTR - Liberty Training Rifle.

The LTR is not a brand or a specific rifle; rather, the LTR is a general set-up for whatever rifle you decide to use (10/22s are easy - but so are Marlins, ARs, etc). A GI sling is extremely helpful. Tech sights are nice, but tons of people come with scopes and that's okay, too. Extended magazine releases and auto bolt releases are also quite common but certainly not necessary.

That said, as long as you bring a working rifle you'll learn something. If you don't have a GI sling, you can still use the hasty sling all weekend. If you don't have tech sights, whatever iron sights or scope you already have will do just fine, etc. It's not about building the rifle to show off - it's about learning the history of April 19, 1775 and learning some foundational markmanship skills in the process.

As far as additional items to bring, a couple of magazines for each rifle, a mat to shoot from, eyes, ears, and ammo are essential. Water and snacks/lunch, too. Other nice things: sunscreen, bug spray, rain gear, chairs, ... I could go on, but generally the basics to shoot and have a good time! Hope the schedule works our for you and the family to attend soon!

 

[Bill of Rights]

There have been A LOT of threads in the last couple of months asking about/showing off their 10/22s that they've made Appleseed ready. Appleseed does recommend an LTR - Liberty Training Rifle.

The LTR is not a brand or a specific rifle; rather, the LTR is a general set-up for whatever rifle you decide to use (10/22s are easy - but so are Marlins, ARs, etc). A GI sling is extremely helpful. Tech sights are nice, but tons of people come with scopes and that's okay, too. Extended magazine releases and auto bolt releases are also quite common but certainly not necessary.

That said, as long as you bring a working rifle you'll learn something. If you don't have a GI sling, you can still use the hasty sling all weekend. If you don't have tech sights, whatever iron sights or scope you already have will do just fine, etc. It's not about building the rifle to show off - it's about learning the history of April 19, 1775 and learning some foundational markmanship skills in the process.

As far as additional items to bring, a couple of magazines for each rifle, a mat to shoot from, eyes, ears, and ammo are essential. Water and snacks/lunch, too. Other nice things: sunscreen, bug spray, rain gear, chairs, ... I could go on, but generally the basics to shoot and have a good time! Hope the schedule works our for you and the family to attend soon!

AB: You and Bubba really need to stop this. I can't rep you yet either!

Thanks very much, both of you, for your great answers in this thread (and everywhere else, too!)

Bill

 

[AuntieBellum]

AB: You and Bubba really need to stop this. I can't rep you yet either!

Thanks very much, both of you, for your great answers in this thread (and everywhere else, too!)

Bill

lol! I'm pretty sure that's what I'm supposed to do: answer questions, get the word out, and do whatever is needed so you instructors have students on the line and can spend your time concentrating on teaching.

BTW - anyone I see with an NRA sticker on your car...you're getting an Appleseed brochure tucked under your windshield wiper. So if you were at Best Buy on 30 today - yep, I was, too. (Good idea, Bubba. He joked, I jumped out of the car and did it. )

 

[MoparMan]

Distance and work schedule has always kept me away.