Why not?

[USMC_0311]

I went at Sue's invitation last year and though we got rained out before I could shoot the full course, I managed a 96 2X sitting at 200 yards. I didn't think that was shameful considering it was the very first time I ever used the AR platform.

Very good shooting! How did the first 20 shots with offhand go? Then you go to 300 on a AR this can be 12 -14 clicks of elevation, then to 500 add another 24-26 clicks. Its just this year I was reminded what a 100 yards can do. Not to mention the wind at 300 or 500 can cause other big dope changes. Of course you have to know the basics first.

If you have any questions about the program or the instruction, ask Sloughfoot, he's an Appleseed Instructor, as is Sue Mogle. Read what Dean had to say about Appleseed here,

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/appleseed/64414-litlratts_invitation.html

No questions that have not been answered yet. I have read that thread and was lucky enough to shoot with Dean at a high power match. We didn't talk much about the appleseed then but I believe it was the same match you were refering to earlier. I was only addressing the OP as to why some people have not shot an appleseed yet not necessarily myself. I plan to bring my son to one hopefully yet this year. I can all ways use the practise geting into postions. I have a few bullseye matches that I am all ready committed to shot.

As a quick response to your concerns about us not teaching much in the way of 500 yard training, you are correct. However, knowing how to dope the wind at 500 yards will do you no good if you cannot manage your sight alignment, your sight picture, your respiratory pause, your trigger control, or your follow through.

These are all things the vast majority of shooters don't know, and many very good shooters don't know either. We teach the fundamentals, if you master those, 4MOA at 500 yards is doable. My wife, after one Appleseed, was able to hit 400 yard steel with a AR using nothing but a sling. She hit it repeatedly.

back to #2 "the mispreception"

2. There are lot of expereinced shooters out there that are quickly turned off because of a condensending preception that we have to shoot an appleseed to be any good.

25 yard training, yea, we see a lot of shooters who have issues maintaining 15 MOA at 25 yards. It's a lot easier to spot and correct a shooter's technique when their groups are 4 inches across at 25 yards, than when they are 6 feet across at 500..

This great BASIC marksmanship training and for the people that need that kind of training appleseed is a good option. Maybe the other message you are trying spread "save a nation" should be talked about with more emphasis in your recruitment efforts.

 

[indyjoe]

As a quick response to your concerns about us not teaching much in the way of 500 yard training, you are correct. However, knowing how to dope the wind at 500 yards will do you no good if you cannot manage your sight alignment, your sight picture, your respiratory pause, your trigger control, or your follow through.

These are all things the vast majority of shooters don't know, and many very good shooters don't know either. We teach the fundamentals, if you master those, 4MOA at 500 yards is doable. My wife, after one Appleseed, was able to hit 400 yard steel with a AR using nothing but a sling. She hit it repeatedly.

back to #2 "the mispreception"

It may be causing a mispreception, but it is certainly backed up by their experience seeing all types of shooters on the line. I was a pretty good shooter (shot rifle team in college), but I was never properly taught the fundamentals. It would have made me a better shot back then.

As far as the price issue, I'm OK with paying $70 to help fund getting females and children there. I have absolutely no problem paying for military and police to be there.

My sister and her family is a great example. Their money is very tight. For the family to shoot, it cost $70 (dad, mom, two boys). I provided rifles and ammo. Their dad is usually working and they attended a second one with just mom and two boys for free. The experience that the boys had, marksmanship that they learned and history that they learned is worth it. You know what they did next? My nephews talked about Appleseed. And they got a large portion of their Boy Scout troupe to come. Many of those are using borrowed rifles and couldn't afford the $70 per fee. But they are getting taught things that they can hardly learn anywhere else. Pride in American Heritage.

 

[USMC_0311]

It may be causing a mispreception, but it is certainly backed up by their experience seeing all types of shooters on the line. I was a pretty good shooter (shot rifle team in college), but I was never properly taught the fundamentals. It would have made me a better shot back then.

How long has appleseed been going? How much experience can you pack into a couple of years?

I am not doubting what they see on the line. The precentage of all shooters compared to appleseed shooters is really to small to make such claims. If you had been taught the fundamentals would still go to an appleseed? Hard to answer that with out being impartial. I know the fundamentals and how to effectively apply them. At least I think I do
Its just a matter of doing it.

As far as the price issue, I'm OK with paying $70 to help fund getting females and children there. I have absolutely no problem paying for military and police to be there.

My sister and her family is a great example. Their money is very tight. For the family to shoot, it cost $70 (dad, mom, two boys). I provided rifles and ammo. Their dad is usually working and they attended a second one with just mom and two boys for free. The experience that the boys had, marksmanship that they learned and history that they learned is worth it. You know what they did next? My nephews talked about Appleseed. And they got a large portion of their Boy Scout troupe to come. Many of those are using borrowed rifles and couldn't afford the $70 per fee. But they are getting taught things that they can hardly learn anywhere else. Pride in American Heritage.

When I pay my fees I only care about what I paid for. Sorry I am not interested in paying for someone else out of those fees. I will decide what charity I will give. 70 is reasonable I suppose if you never learned the funamentals. Not that I am a perfect shot I do know my limitations. I all so know the fundamentals, I just need to practise them a little.
I tried to answer the OP with some of my concerns as well as others. I was ok with most of the responses but now after even more info I think I will pass on the appleseed.

 

[indyjoe]

I am not doubting what they see on the line. The precentage of all shooters compared to appleseed shooters is really to small to make such claims. If you had been taught the fundamentals would still go to an appleseed? Hard to answer that with out being impartial. I know the fundamentals and how to effectively apply them. At least I think I do
Its just a matter of doing it.

I took that statement as the majority of the shooters that they see. I think you are interpreting it as the majority of shooters period. Although, I would be that a majority of shooters without proper military rifle training fall into the camp of never being taught the fundamentals. Just based on the shooters I've met in my life.

I have found some of the most benefits at my later Appleseeds in helping other shooters, which just reinforces the knowledge in my mind. So yes, I still feel like I get something out of an Appleseed, after learning the fundamentals. And hearing the history told is a great experience that is totally different from the shooting. (Other than seeing how close you can shoot compared with the skill of our founding men and women, with vastly superior firearms.)

 

[DaveD]

......... but now after even more info I think I will pass on the appleseed.

Sorry to hear that. I don't know where you are in the state, but would like to offer you the opportunity to experience what we do by inviting you to the mini Appleseed at Cloverdale Conservation Club on Sept 11. I will pay your club fee and furnish a scoped 10/22 with ammo to sweeten the the deal.

Dave

 

[yellowhousejake]

How long has appleseed been going? How much experience can you pack into a couple of years?

I am not doubting what they see on the line. The precentage of all shooters compared to appleseed shooters is really to small to make such claims.

A year ago I would have agreed with you. I see two groups, being general, who come to an Appleseed. Those who want to learn the fundamentals (not basics, what we teach is not very basic at all), and those who think they can grab a quick patch because they already know how to shoot. So far I have seen very very few "experienced" shooters who can walk away with a patch on Saturday. If they do, it's because they applied at least some of what we teach. I see more who don't get the patch because,

their sling is mis-adjusted and slipping, (but won't borrow a replacement)
or they brought the wrong glasses,
or their handloads are seated too deep,
or their scope is off,
or their trigger is creepy,
or..............

When I pay my fees I only care about what I paid for. Sorry I am not interested in paying for someone else out of those fees. I will decide what charity I will give.

That is very sad to hear. I still hope to see you on the line some day.

YHJ

 

[rimfire_crazed]

I have participated in a Mini and plan to do a full 'seed this fall. The only thing keeping me from doing a full seed so far has been the heat. I was sick for 18 hrs after completing the MCFG mini.

I thought I was going to walk to the line and clean the AQT. I'd been practicing my offhand shooting for weeks leading up to the seed and was extremely confident I'd shoot well. Then it all went wrong. My rear sight had come off one day prior to the shoot and I hastilly reattached - in the wrong place. My point of Impact shifted three inches high - making it almost impossible to hit the target without major point of aim changes. I had to shift to my scoped backup rifle. I'd done no previous training with that rifle and a good three to four hours were spent really learning how to shoot that gun in the Appleseed course of fire - I'd always shot that gun off a bench with a bipod.

I still managed to turn in a respectable score on the final AQT but did not complete my goal of making rifleman with irons. I'll be back and back with a vengeance.

The MCFG mini was much more involved than a traditional mini - lots of history and gobs of technique. The firehose analogy worked well. My Tech sights are fixed, my gun is running well, and my practice targets are showing major improvement.

I don't care WHO trained you in marksmanship. Special Forces, Mossad, CIA, ISP. Appleseed can teach you SOMETHING if you're willing to let them.

 

[indyjoe]

The heat is really a killer. My first Appleseed, it was hot. I brought 32 ounce Gaterade and thought it would be enough. Not even close. I drank so much water that I became hyperhydrated. I had a splitting headache, but thought I would one more round of AQT. That was the most eye opening part of the Appleseed for me. I felt like a steaming pile of dog poo, but shot a 197, I think. I just followed the steps. 5 minutes after we finished the AQT, I was in the weeds vomiting up the water. My body knew that I had too few electrolytes and too much water. But it blew me away that I could make good hits, feeling as bad as I did.

 

[USMC_0311]

So far I have seen very very few "experienced" shooters who can walk away with a patch on Saturday.

Thats my point you are not attracting enough good shooters. Just because they are "experienced" doesn't make them good.

If they do, it's because they applied at least some of what we teach. I see more who don't get the patch because,

Come on, again I refer to reason number 2. It realy is this condensending attitude why appleseed is not attracting better shooters. Maybe even some of the in-experienced ones all so.

That is very sad to hear. I still hope to see you on the line some day..

Don't be sad, its not that I don't give charity. I just decide who, what, and when I do. I sponsor many new shooters by loaning guns, ammo, paying match fees, ect.. When I am on the range I make it point to try to introduce new shooters and help expereinced ones. Most of the time I just have to let few rounds go down range and they come to me.

I don't care WHO trained you in marksmanship. Special Forces, Mossad, CIA, ISP. Appleseed can teach you SOMETHING if you're willing to let them.

Were you trained by any of the above mentioned groups? Some of those groups are real advanced and would teach any appleseeder a thing or 2.
Not really sure you could teach them something new. Maybe reinforce the fundamentals that they have all ready learned. I was a marksmanship instructor in the Marines and yes any good coach will catch things I might forget when I am shooting.



If your strategy to get someone to go to an appleseed is to goat them into thinking they are not good enough. Making comments like some of the ones in this thread, presenting a trumped up challenge like nobody has shot a perfect score or very few experinced shooters pass and if they do its because what we teach. Jeez that just gets old real quick. I was pretty content with the responses I got from ATM and was willing to go to an Appleseed. Not sure if you all didn't read the enitre thread or just missed the point of the OP but to keep hamering me with this crap is a big turn off. BoR asked why, I answered, now work on a solution (and if I go shouldn't matter). Appleseed definately has its place and I will continue to recommend it to new shooters. Appleseed is not the ultimate authority on marksmanship however.
There is another point and I have brought it up a few times in this thread. There is more to the agenda then just marksmanship. It seems this is kept somewhat of a secret. I get little bits like "save a nation", or "how our founding fathers" but nothing to sink you teeth into. Why is this not discussed as much as the marksmanship?

 

[yellowhousejake]

Thats my point you are not attracting enough good shooters. Just because they are "experienced" doesn't make them good.



Come on, again I refer to reason number 2. It realy is this condensending attitude why appleseed is not attracting better shooters. Maybe even some of the in-experienced ones all so.

It's not condescending, at least not meant to be. It simply is a matter of we hear a lot of people say they can't learn anything at an Appleseed. I've yet to bear witness to that fact. I can say this, because I was one of those people.

Don't be sad, its not that I don't give charity. I just decide who, what, and when I do. I sponsor many new shooters by loaning guns, ammo, paying match fees, ect.. When I am on the range I make it point to try to introduce new shooters and help expereinced ones. Most of the time I just have to let few rounds go down range and they come to me.

That's a great thing then, please keep it up.

If your strategy to get someone to go to an appleseed is to goat them into thinking they are not good enough. Making comments like some of the ones in this thread, presenting a trumped up challenge like nobody has shot a perfect score or very few experinced shooters pass and if they do its because what we teach. Jeez that just gets old real quick. I was pretty content with the responses I got from ATM and was willing to go to an Appleseed. Not sure if you all didn't read the enitre thread or just missed the point of the OP but to keep hamering me with this crap is a big turn off. BoR asked why, I answered, now work on a solution (and if I go shouldn't matter). Appleseed definately has its place and I will continue to recommend it to new shooters. Appleseed is not the ultimate authority on marksmanship however.

It's not our strategy to goad anyone into anything. I have been known to toss out a challenge now and then though...

But if you can already shoot a expert score than we would like to see you do it, not because we want to shame you if you fail, that would be the farthest thing from our minds. We want good shooters to come and show the others how it's done, and then join us. Good instructors are are always welcome, and if a shooter is able to clean the first target of the weekend, then all the shooters who cannot, NEED them as instructors.

You go to the range and fire a few rounds, then have shooters ask you how you do it, great! Shoot a Rifleman's score and take an Instructor role and I will bring you 30 shooters every weekend eager to have you show them.

As an Appleseed Instructor, you could reach hundreds in a year.

There is another point and I have brought it up a few times in this thread. There is more to the agenda then just marksmanship. It seems this is kept somewhat of a secret. I get little bits like "save a nation", or "how our founding fathers" but nothing to sink you teeth into. Why is this not discussed as much as the marksmanship?

Because the shooting tends to take center stage on forums. No one ever asks "what books should I read before I come to an Appleseed?". The heritage is fully 50% or more of why we are here. For me it's a higher percentage. In short, the rest of what we teach is this...

The character and dignity of a free people.

At one time in this country, marksmanship was considered a valuable thing. Not just the ability to hit a target, but the respect that was due to someone who could display the confidence, self control, and character required to do so.

The founding fathers knew that those traits were what set us apart from the rest of the world. They believed that those traits must be exercised, nurtured, and passed on.

The founders understood that everyone was capable of making important decisions, such as the decisions required for the governance of themselves, the welfare of their family, and the safety of their neighbors. They knew that the right choices are possible, and the ordinary judgment of ordinary people is sufficient to make them.

What is the REST of the program? A history lesson on what sacrifices the men and women of the colonies made on that April morning that provided the nation we all enjoy today. We do not see those lessons taught much in modern society. Appleseed would like to see that change.

We charge for the shooting, but the history is free. Come on out, listen, see what you think. It costs only your time.

YHJ

 

[ATM]

It is possible that:

"If they do, it's because they applied at least some of what we teach."

(which I take to mean that they applied some of the fundamentals) rather, got interpreted as:

"If they do, it's because they applied at least some of what we taught them."

The second one would sound condescending to me, too.

Appleseed didn't create and doesn't claim any implied monopoly on any of the time-tested rifle fundamentals. They just happen to be the basis of what "we teach".

"we teach" is actually just presenting instruction and then providing observed feedback during performance, helping students learn to self-diagnose based on their own symptoms as much as possible.

But I do wonder, if people (as a whole) could shoot better with even a moderately different technique than what we instruct, why wouldn't that technique have replaced a less effective fundamental standard at some point?



So... any more why nots?


ETA: And I promise, no hammering.

(Unless you really need it.)

 

[USMC_0311]

It's not condescending, at least not meant to be. It simply is a matter of we hear a lot of people say they can't learn anything at an Appleseed. I've yet to bear witness to that fact. I can say this, because I was one of those people.

I am sure its not ment to be condescending its that "mispreception" thing. I never said I couldn't learn anything from appleseed now that would be condesending in itself but I am sure there is another mispreceptiion in there all so.

But if you can already shoot a expert score than we would like to see you do it, not because we want to shame you if you fail, that would be the farthest thing from our minds. We want good shooters to come and show the others how it's done, and then join us. Good instructors are are always welcome, and if a shooter is able to clean the first target of the weekend, then all the shooters who cannot, NEED them as instructors.

You go to the range and fire a few rounds, then have shooters ask you how you do it, great! Shoot a Rifleman's score and take an Instructor role and I will bring you 30 shooters every weekend eager to have you show them.

I shoot primarily pistol competitions now. I have been out of shooting completely about 15 years. About the time I joined INGO 2 years or so ago I got the bug again. My first love was the rifle shooting competitively while in the Marine Corps. I shot Interservice, Camp Perry, Marine Corps matches, and several NRA Highpower matches. I tried getting back into highpower by going to back to Perry with no gun, no practice, close but no cigar. I went to high power match down at camp attebury, found out real quick I need some money and practice. Getting into the sitting positions is hell of lot harder now days. I decided to focus on the pistol for now; I just picked up 4 leg points at Perry this year. I am on track getting re-certified as an instructor and will be teaching again soon. I will be involved in getting a new pistol program started at FCVCC next year and I am not sure how much time I could give towards appleseed as an instructor. I would like to see an appleseed at my home range FCVCC and will inquire at the next members meeting.

As an Appleseed Instructor, you could reach hundreds in a year.

Well I can say that I have taught hundreds of Marines to qualify expert.

Because the shooting tends to take center stage on forums. No one ever asks "what books should I read before I come to an Appleseed?". The heritage is fully 50% or more of why we are here. For me it's a higher percentage. In short, the rest of what we teach is this...

The character and dignity of a free people.

At one time in this country, marksmanship was considered a valuable thing. Not just the ability to hit a target, but the respect that was due to someone who could display the confidence, self control, and character required to do so.

The founding fathers knew that those traits were what set us apart from the rest of the world. They believed that those traits must be exercised, nurtured, and passed on.

The founders understood that everyone was capable of making important decisions, such as the decisions required for the governance of themselves, the welfare of their family, and the safety of their neighbors. They knew that the right choices are possible, and the ordinary judgment of ordinary people is sufficient to make them.

What is the REST of the program? A history lesson on what sacrifices the men and women of the colonies made on that April morning that provided the nation we all enjoy today. We do not see those lessons taught much in modern society. Appleseed would like to see that change.

We charge for the shooting, but the history is free. Come on out, listen, see what you think. It costs only your time.

YHJ

Thanks for this description.

 

[USMC_0311]

It is possible that:


(which I take to mean that they applied some of the fundamentals) rather, got interpreted as:

"If they do, it's because they applied at least some of what we taught them."

The second one would sound condescending to me, too.

Ok maybe I misinterpeted it.

But I do wonder, if people (as a whole) could shoot better with even a moderately different technique than what we instruct, why wouldn't that technique have replaced a less effective fundamental standard at some point?

you lost me on this one, I do believe the fundamentals you teach are the same as I have learned and taught. I ain't got nothing better.

So... any more why nots?


ETA: And I promise, no hammering.

(Unless you really need it.)

Yea that ATM guy scares me with the big gun he OC's.

 

[ATM]

you lost me on this one, I do believe the fundamentals you teach are the same as I have learned and taught. I ain't got nothing better.

That was just people as "a whole". For you, I'd have used "a-hole".

Honestly, you might not benefit from a thing we offer regarding marksmanship, but we'd love to see you regardless.

Yea that ATM guy scares me with the big gun he OC's.

Your fear is greatly justified. I've always suspected it's the only thing that keeps people here from tracking me down and smacking me.

 

[DaveD]

USMC_0311,

My offer to you wasn't intended as a put down. Just figured the best way to clear up any questions or concerns about the program is to come on out and see 1st hand what we do. As ATM says, we would love to have you.

By the way, we had an active duty Marine Rifle Instructor tell us that we are teaching in two days what he does in two weeks and we throw in a History lesson to boot

You are right, ATM is one scary fellow

 

[USMC_0311]

USMC_0311,

My offer to you wasn't intended as a put down. Just figured the best way to clear up any questions or concerns about the program is to come on out and see 1st hand what we do.

You are right, ATM is one scary fellow

Not offened at all, offer is appreciated. First hand experience is all ways better but the OP wanted to know why not and I was just trying to help. I will shoot an appleseed and I will pay my fees, I have plenty of guns even a 10/22 with tech sights Thank you IndyGunworks!!!

ATM is not scary it's the gun he carries openly that is scary.

 

[yellowhousejake]

I would like to see an appleseed at my home range FCVCC and will inquire at the next members meeting.

I will be there on the 19th presenting Appleseed to the membership, and asking to have our events on the schedule

Well I can say that I have taught hundreds of Marines to qualify expert.

Help us teach millions how to shoot, where they come from, and why marksmanship is so important to our culture.

Thanks for this description.

Thanks for the prod, it was time we posted that info again.

YHJ

 

[ATM]

* I still like to think it's me. *

 

[yellowhousejake]

* I still like to think it's me. *

My wife says you're a sweetheart, so it ain't you.

YHJ

 

[ATM]

She's right.





Dangit!