Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?

[jkaetz]

Can you explain how anyone has anything they had taken?

Huh? I didn't say anything about things being taken. I said I didn't understand your perspective. I mean I understand it factually, but it doesn't make logical sense in the realm of buying and selling nearly anything else on the planet.

Not one attempt to refute the facts presented here.

While they may be facts, I don't think some are, I also don't think they bolster your position as you believe they do

FACT: Landowners have the right to sell any rights they own, individually or as a complete bundle.

Yes it enables the deed restriction structure we have now. It doesn't help or hurt your argument, it just is the way things are.

FACT: No one has EVER FORCED a buyer to buy land without all rights, but they may choose to do so.

The force is implicit due to the lack of non-HOA neighborhoods readily available in the same price range/location/finishes.

FACT: Many buyers do want an HOA and any laws requiring sunsetting of HOA’s and a revote takes rights away from them.

You have hypothesized that the majority want to live in an HOA neighborhood. I would even agree with this if the implicit force above was eliminated. Hell I could even see a justification for the developers to charge more for these homes initially due to the perceived potential for lost value as people move in with their unsightly RVs and start up their mechanics workshops. However in the case of your hypothesis all of this is moot as the only thing that can be proven is that all new construction neighborhoods have an HOA. Nothing more, nothing less.

FACT: Any laws that force landowners to only be able to sell the complete bundle take landowners rights.

Yep. The perpetuality of the deed restrictions as written shouldn't be allowed. I suspect that the deed restriction laws never had an HOA in mind when they were written. As such some small tweaks could easily satisfy both the pro-HOA and no-HOA folks.

FACT: In all these posts the ONLY ones at risk of having rights taken are landowners by those that demand they sell the complete bundle of rights or buyers that want an HOA.

The right to tell someone what they can and can't do with something they sold should not have existed in the first place except in very limited scope between two people.

FACT: Demanding developers not create HOA’s is taking their land owner rights.

Yep, again this doesn't help your position. No one is going to feel sorry for multi million dollar developers.

FACT: Just because developers operating on thin margins to build the most house for the money for homebuyers through economies of scale and they create an HOA’s to protect their investment, likely from many of you in this thread, no one is forced to buy in an HOA. EVER! You may not like your other options but there are options.

Are you a developer? Do you you have access to their books? Then this isn't a fact, it's conjecture. The economies of scale don't go away simply because they can't limit what people can do. I think I even carved out an exception to my own stance saying that they could in fact write the rules while they still had lots to sell. It's only after they have moved on that I believe those rights and as such their rules evaporate to be replaced with what the actual homeowners can agree upon.

FACT: INGO is not the public at large and in no way represents the beliefs of the public.

Nope, but there have been a number of surveys posted that show the pro-HOA sentiment is not either. This still doesn't help your position.

This belief that sellers must sell the complete bundle of rights is ridiculous and ignores the history of the transfer of rights of property that goes back to the beginning of this country.

No one said complete. You can separate mineral rights, air rights, etc... and I'll even give you narrowly tailored deed restrictions between two people selling can show a vested interest in the sold property. But not the broad and perpetual restrictions handed down by developers in the form of an HOA.

See my reply to red. A seller can only sell what they bought and own, nothing more.

This highlights the entire problem I see with deed restrictions as they exist today. As it is, and as you are describing, the piece of the deed that one "owns" can only get smaller with time. The original owner can have ties to it nearly indefinitely while everyone below only gets a smaller and smaller piece if every "owner" adds new restrictions without the old ones falling off.


I'm sure you'll have fun telling me why I'm wrong, I'm infringing on the poor land owners freedom, it's the law, I'm the minority, there is no spoon, and you're not peeing on my head it's just rain, etc... while I do a face palm with my umbrella ready to deploy.

 

[jamil]

Again you did not say it was wrong, you are just firing up the diehards that still are saying it is but know deep inside it is not.

Wrong? You mean morally? Yes. It’s morally wrong.

I thought we established many many pages ago that this is a discussion of ought, not is. So it is indeed “wrong”, we ought not force property owners into having to follow the deal struck generations after everyone is dead who made the deal. And it would be best if we didn’t allow parceling off property rights as if they’re commodities in the first place.

 

[jamil]

It usually uses a phrase such as this

“This conveyance is subject to all rights-of-way, easements, agreements, restrictions and limitations of record; and all real estate taxes due and payable after the date of this instrument.”

I got this from a Marion county deed. Your title searcher will give you all the details in your title policy and sellers should disclose them when the property is for sale to prospective buyers.

See? Lawyers.

 

[Ingomike]

Huh? I didn't say anything about things being taken. I said I didn't understand your perspective. I mean I understand it factually, but it doesn't make logical sense in the realm of buying and selling nearly anything else on the planet.

First off, I like your post. We can discuss from here. We likely will never agree but we can talk about it, maybe even find common ground, literally.

I am big on property rights and markets. I believe in the ability of sellers to sell just the rights they want to sell to a buyer in the open market. I get it that some cannot fathom that others have a way they want to live in a neighborhood and that the best way to get that is to put in place restrictions as to what is allowed in the neighborhood and have all buyers agree to that. I was called a communist for wanting that from those that I likely would not want as neighbors.

While they may be facts, I don't think some are, I also don't think they bolster your position as you believe they do

I do not believe they hurt my position at all.

Yes it enables the deed restriction structure we have now. It doesn't help or hurt your argument, it just is the way things are.

Why do you think the deed restrictions became so popular with developers? I believe some in the industry experienced losses and their immediate response is to shield themselves from the losses.

The force is implicit due to the lack of non-HOA neighborhoods readily available in the same price range/location/finishes.

But it is an overstatement to say anyone is forced. If the market is there, why do so few builders build without covenants and restrictions? I can’t believe that someone wouldn’t fill that market. If a builder sold a house to some people who decided to paint it in a way most would consider hideous before the builder sold nearby lots do you think they would easily sell the empty adjoining lots?

You have hypothesized that the majority want to live in an HOA neighborhood. I would even agree with this if the implicit force above was eliminated. Hell I could even see a justification for the developers to charge more for these homes initially due to the perceived potential for lost value as people move in with their unsightly RVs and start up their mechanics workshops. However in the case of your hypothesis all of this is moot as the only thing that can be proven is that all new construction neighborhoods have an HOA. Nothing more, nothing less.

The majority of homebuyers today are not buying their forever home, that is not how society works today, see all the jobs the young today have had while most in INGO have had a couple in a lifetime. Resale value is huge among the younger. They are buying starter homes, move up 1 for kids home, move up 2 for older kids home, empty nester home, and senior condo.

To make those moves they must have rock solid property values, the group want an HOA to protect their values. They may even complain or respond to a survey negatively but at the end of the day they know they need to protect their values to move to the next level.

Yep. The perpetuality of the deed restrictions as written shouldn't be allowed. I suspect that the deed restriction laws never had an HOA in mind when they were written.

How is one restriction distinguished from another? They are all restrictions of use.

As such some small tweaks could easily satisfy both the pro-HOA and no-HOA folks.

What would you suggest?

The right to tell someone what they can and can't do with something they sold should not have existed in the first place except in very limited scope between two people.

This would eliminate the right of people to have the neighborhood aesthetic they want. Indy blue does not want the same things from his neighborhood as I do. Neither are right or wrong just different. I good friends that work on cars and trucks at their homes but that is not where I want to live. I do not want a wall of RV’s in most drives. BTW, starting to see the folks that want to do the RV thing buying in neighborhoods without covenants and the neighborhood is looking more like an RV sale lot than neighborhood to me.

Yep, again this doesn't help your position. No one is going to feel sorry for multi million dollar developers.

So you are agreeing this is taking landowners rights but since it is unsympathetic developers it will not be a big deal?

Are you a developer? Do you you have access to their books? Then this isn't a fact, it's conjecture. The economies of scale don't go away simply because they can't limit what people can do. I think I even carved out an exception to my own stance saying that they could in fact write the rules while they still had lots to sell. It's only after they have moved on that I believe those rights and as such their rules evaporate to be replaced with what the actual homeowners can agree upon.

I actually know or have known a lot of developers over the years. I do not need access to their books to know business. I know development is a risky business and subject to markets beyond control of the companies and they work to mitigate all risk they can. Wild cards in neighborhoods can be mitigated easily.

The later part basically creates a bait and switch for those that want a robust set of covenants and HOA protections. That is why the standard is 80% to change anything. It is possible if a strong majority want to do it, but a vocal minority cannot whip the neighborhood into a frenzy and slip one by easily.

Nope, but there have been a number of surveys posted that show the pro-HOA sentiment is not either. This still doesn't help your position.

Do you really trust surveys? That is not the typical INGO response nor even the typical response of some posters in this thread promoting those surveys? Like I said I before, I trust what the market does more than any survey.

No one said complete. You can separate mineral rights, air rights, etc... and I'll even give you narrowly tailored deed restrictions between two people selling can show a vested interest in the sold property. But not the broad and perpetual restrictions handed down by developers in the form of an HOA.

Several have said complete. An HOA is just an organization of the covenants to provide what the covenants call for and maintain the neighborhood according to the covenants.

This highlights the entire problem I see with deed restrictions as they exist today. As it is, and as you are describing, the piece of the deed that one "owns" can only get smaller with time. The original owner can have ties to it nearly indefinitely while everyone below only gets a smaller and smaller piece if every "owner" adds new restrictions without the old ones falling off.

That could happen, but have you ever heard of it outside of organized HOA’s?

I'm sure you'll have fun telling me why I'm wrong, I'm infringing on the poor land owners freedom, it's the law, I'm the minority, there is no spoon, and you're not peeing on my head it's just rain, etc... while I do a face palm with my umbrella ready to deploy.

There are many reasons the laws and customs concerning land transfers of rights we have in place were created. I am sure some were good and some were bad but at the end of the day we have it better in this country than anywhere else in the world. No matter how much we all complain about it in the political section.

 

[Route 45]

Nazis always have had a problem with borders.

 

[repeter1977]

I want to live in a neighborhood with others that want to live the way I do. Control only comes into play when people lie and sign documents that they will live in accordance to the covenants and HOA then fail to live up to their word.

So, from your own post, you want to control your neighbors. Surprise, most people don't want to be controlled by their neighbors. It's a simple concept which is why I'm positive you still won't get it.

 

[repeter1977]

It is your choice. There are car clubs with rules and dues. Get out more.

Exactly why my post. Figures you didn't read it. Or else you agree, which is why everyone hates HOAs. Thank you

 

[repeter1977]

No, my point was fact. No one is forced to live in a HOA neighborhood and aside from maybe a Del Boca Vista type town, no where has 100% HOA neighborhoods

I never said that. I said it was not 100% forced, as it wasn't. My step brother opted to leave the military vs take the shot. It wasn't required by my employer but we were prepared for my wife to quit vs take the jab. It would have hurt financially for a bit, but look at all the issues and deaths is caused now.

Everyone has their own comfort level. I'm OK with HOAs but not the jab, and it's cool you're not OK with HOAs but bend to taking the jab.

There have been quite a few lawsuits regarding the jab and the military, if that happened to you, sue the F'ers and get made whole.

Wait, isn't this the "Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?" thread??


SUE them!

Yes and no. Very blessed for sure, but not without loss, disappointments, and setbacks. I learned long ago that EVERY day is a gift and Illegitimi non carborundum - Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Learn when to yes, when to say no, and learn from others mistakes.

Off topic, but this guy has a wealth of info on the jab and covid...he is the MOST PUBLISHED cardiologist, so I'll take his word over the MSM and those trying to bribe folks to get jabbed!

x.com

twitter.com

Yes, the ones refusing the shot didn't get honorable discharges either. It was absolutely 100% take it or get discharged. It's happened before with the Anthrax shots among other experimental vaccines.
Plenty are trying to sue but need the governments permission. Apparently you've never served nor tried suing the military, so you should probably stop.

 

[firecadet613]

Yes, the ones refusing the shot didn't get honorable discharges either. It was absolutely 100% take it or get discharged. It's happened before with the Anthrax shots among other experimental vaccines.

That's correct. Take the jab or get out. Many chose to get out. But if it happened with anthrax then why are you surprised it also happened with covid as well? It'll likely happen again with the next pandemic.

Protections for Troops Booted over COVID Vaccine Mandate Added to House Defense Bill

The five vaccine-related amendments to the National Defense Authorization Act passed largely along party lines, though a few Democrats voted with Republicans in support of the amendments.

www.military.com

Rep. Banks’ COVID Vaccine Reinstatement Amendments Pass In FY24 NDAA

banks.house.gov

Can't find where it passed but I stopped searching as I'm not impacted... plus this is the hate HOA not the hate covid mandate thread.

Plenty are trying to sue but need the governments permission. Apparently you've never served nor tried suing the military, so you should probably stop.

Life is full of choices. Like HOAs, no one held a gun to anyone's head to get the jab. Many were coerced, many under duress, but no threat on your life (unless you took it and died, that is).



Now I understand the chip on your shoulder. But, where did the HOA hurt you?



Because it seems it's all theoretical for you at this point.

 

[repeter1977]

That's correct. Take the jab or get out. Many chose to get out. But if it happened with anthrax then why are you surprised it also happened with covid as well? It'll likely happen again with the next pandemic.

Protections for Troops Booted over COVID Vaccine Mandate Added to House Defense Bill

The five vaccine-related amendments to the National Defense Authorization Act passed largely along party lines, though a few Democrats voted with Republicans in support of the amendments.

www.military.com

Rep. Banks’ COVID Vaccine Reinstatement Amendments Pass In FY24 NDAA

banks.house.gov

Can't find where it passed but I stopped searching as I'm not impacted... plus this is the hate HOA not the hate covid mandate thread.


Life is full of choices. Like HOAs, no one held a gun to anyone's head to get the jab. Many were coerced, many under duress, but no threat on your life (unless you took it and died, that is).



Now I understand the chip on your shoulder. But, where did the HOA hurt you?

View attachment 364665

Because it seems it's all theoretical for you at this point.

Because as pointed out, they didn't have a choice, nor do a lot trying to get houses anymore not in an HOA.
Right, it's not a threat of death, it's only a bad discharge, possible homeless and death, but not the threat of death.

And I've typed more than a few times my problem with HOAs, we've even had a discussion about one of many points. I'm tired of beating a dead horse since it's obvious neither you nor OP actually addressed most.

I will say that thanks to you both and this thread, that before I was slightly against HOAs but I was OK with to each their own. Now because of this, I believe they need to have laws against it because apparently if it's a law then it's absolutely good and @Ingomike and you will have to come back and apologize.

Have a good night.

 

[Ingomike]

Because as pointed out, they didn't have a choice, nor do a lot trying to get houses anymore not in an HOA.
Right, it's not a threat of death, it's only a bad discharge, possible homeless and death, but not the threat of death.

And I've typed more than a few times my problem with HOAs, we've even had a discussion about one of many points. I'm tired of beating a dead horse since it's obvious neither you nor OP actually addressed most.

I will say that thanks to you both and this thread, that before I was slightly against HOAs but I was OK with to each their own. Now because of this, I believe they need to have laws against it because apparently if it's a law then it's absolutely good and @Ingomike and you will have to come back and apologize.

Have a good night.

Only communists want to take rights from landowners, at least that is what I was told on INGO…

 

[firecadet613]

Because as pointed out, they didn't have a choice, nor do a lot trying to get houses anymore not in an HOA.
Right, it's not a threat of death, it's only a bad discharge, possible homeless and death, but not the threat of death.

They have a choice. They may not like the consequences, but they still have a choice. Just like you do when buying a house. Setup a search for "No HOA". Pretty simple to do and you'll only see houses without a HOA.

Homeless and death?! What?? One could easily take a job in the private sector once you get out. Or just take the jab and stay in the service. I've never enlisted but even I know that those in the armed services get all sorts of vaccines before they deploy (maybe it's when you enlist, idk).

Hell, I was one of the few in my larger family that did not get the jab and took plenty of heat for it. But, you've got to stand for something and turns out I was right. (Ask my vaxxed and booster brother how many times he's had covid - hint, many more than me).

And I've typed more than a few times my problem with HOAs, we've even had a discussion about one of many points. I'm tired of beating a dead horse since it's obvious neither you nor OP actually addressed most.

Ah yes, the racist HOA. How could I forget.

Do you have any first hand experience or just the news articles you've linked to? Have you ever lived in a HOA neighborhood?

Some have posted they had previously and they had issues. Others have lived in one and without issue. Others still live in one and enjoy it. Isn't it great to live in a country with all this freedom to choose where we live and have the options we do?

I will say that thanks to you both and this thread, that before I was slightly against HOAs but I was OK with to each their own. Now because of this, I believe they need to have laws against it because apparently if it's a law then it's absolutely good and @Ingomike and you will have to come back and apologize.

Have a good night.

Now you want to outlaw HOAs. So you're propsing laws against folks joining a HOA, that many folks do not have issue with?

And you say you're for freedom . Far from it, actually...

 

[phylodog]

Homeless and death?! What?? One could easily take a job in the private sector once you get out.

Do you have any first hand experience or just the news articles you've linked to? Have you ever lived in a HOA neighborhood?

Do you have any first hand experience serving in the military, deciding to make a career out of it, pouring everything you have into it then getting booted because you won't lick the leftist boots? You act as if it's a casual thing because it didn't happen to you.

 

[firecadet613]

Do you have any first hand experience serving in the military, deciding to make a career out of it, pouring everything you have into it then getting booted because you won't lick the leftist boots? You act as if it's a casual thing because it didn't happen to you.

See my post above.

I've never enlisted but even I know that those in the armed services get all sorts of vaccines before they deploy (maybe it's when you enlist, idk).

Nope, never did enlist. After seeing what they've done to the military thus far, dodged that bullet!

Do you not get jabbed with plenty of vaccines when you enlist though?

And, now I see why this thread has gone on soooo long. It's no longer the Hate HOA thread, it's the let the chip on your shoulder shine thread.

 

[Creedmoor]

See my post above.

Nope, never did enlist. After seeing what they've done to the military thus far, dodged that bullet!

Do you not get jabbed with plenty of vaccines when you enlist though?

And, now I see why this thread has gone on soooo long. It's no longer the Hate HOA thread, it's the let the chip on your shoulder shine thread.

View attachment 364750

It's definitely not a "I dodged the bullet" thing my friend.
It's a Force Health Program. It's been different names over the years. Most vaccines that my elders, my brother and I were given we really didn't even know ow what we got. Both of my sons have been given loads of vaccines from the MC and working in other countries.
As much as I'm an individualistic, I understand why the Armed Services gives you no option with these vaccines. Everyone has to be vaccinated or it could cause big problems in the field of back in the rear.
My sons and I discussed a few of the vaccines they were going to get along with a few boosters, one son just made the statement, dad after getting the Anthrax a d Yellow Fever shots, what does it matter.

Now I didn't and still don't agree with not having a choice. And I fully understand why its needed.
But as soon as we sign our enlistment papers at meps, we are indentured servants until our contract is final.
Enlisting in the Service is the greatest way to serve your country.

 

[phylodog]

See my post above.

Nope, never did enlist. After seeing what they've done to the military thus far, dodged that bullet!

Do you not get jabbed with plenty of vaccines when you enlist though?

And, now I see why this thread has gone on soooo long. It's no longer the Hate HOA thread, it's the let the chip on your shoulder shine thread.

View attachment 364750

The chip on my shoulder? You casually dismiss the ****ing over of thousands of the few people in this country actually willing to sacrifice anything for it as if it's a minor inconvenience.

I did get a lot of vaccines when I went in, that was part of the deal. That has nothing to do with the COVID vaccine. I'm sure you'd prefer to just casually lump them together as if all "vaccines" are the same to bolster your argument but there's a reason you didn't get it, isn't there? It's ok to force others to get it though, just not you.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm just capable of seeing things from outside my limited perspective and I'm mature enough not to believe I know it all. It's very clear from your posts that you will never care about anything unless it directly affects you in a negative fashion.

 

[firecadet613]

It's definitely not a "I dodged the bullet" thing my friend.

I believe in a recent post you said this...

Way back in 1976 I had a date with the District? Court in Bethesda, Md.

I wore a Mickey Mouse Tee shirt to see the Judge. He also found no humor in me, he gave me three options, I picked option three. Six years in the Armed Services of my choice.

So you didn't go in the armed forced by choice, yet for me it's not that I "dodged that bullet by not enlisting".

It's a Force Health Program. It's been different names over the years. Most vaccines that my elders, my brother and I were given we really didn't even know ow what we got. Both of my sons have been given loads of vaccines from the MC and working in other countries.
As much as I'm an individualistic, I understand why the Armed Services gives you no option with these vaccines. Everyone has to be vaccinated or it could cause big problems in the field of back in the rear.
My sons and I discussed a few of the vaccines they were going to get along with a few boosters, one son just made the statement, dad after getting the Anthrax a d Yellow Fever shots, what does it matter.

Now I didn't and still don't agree with not having a choice. And I fully understand why its needed.
But as soon as we sign our enlistment papers at meps, we are indentured servants until our contract is final.
Enlisting in the Service is the greatest way to serve your country.

Yep, I get the why. And we haven't had a draft in years, so one would have signed up for that, not forced into it.

It certainly tells the state of our armed forces when many veterans are discouraging their kids to enlist. The left is getting what they want by that though, a "woke" force...

The chip on my shoulder? You casually dismiss the ****ing over of thousands of the few people in this country actually willing to sacrifice anything for it as if it's a minor inconvenience.

I did get a lot of vaccines when I went in, that was part of the deal. That has nothing to do with the COVID vaccine.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, I'm just capable of seeing things from outside my limited perspective and I'm mature enough not to believe I know it all. It's very clear from your posts that you will never care about anything unless it directly affects you in a negative fashion.

SUE THEM! I didn't make that decision to force the vax and we have a legal system setup for that, so take them to court. I do not have the power to remedy that.

The articles I saw last night said more than 8,000 received dishonorable discharges over the covid vax. Nothing was in the paperwork you signed when you enlisted that gave them the right to give you that jab?

When did I say I know it all? Life is about choices. We all have the freedom to make our own choices. Letting folks willingly join a HOA is freedom. Removing that option is NOT freedom.

Plenty has negatively affected me, I just chose to move on, do better, and live my life.

If living in a HOA is what's negativity affecting someone, they are leading a very blessed life my friend...

 

[phylodog]

SUE THEM! I didn't make that decision to force the vax and we have a legal system setup for that, so take them to court. I do not have the power to remedy that.

The articles I saw last night said more than 8,000 received dishonorable discharges over the covid vax. Nothing was in the paperwork you signed when you enlisted that gave them the right to give you that jab?

Yeah, that's been covered. You don't get to sue the government unless the let you. Makes perfect sense and is complete ******** but hey, that's the law so it must be moral, right?

Exactly as I said. Yeah, it was in the paperwork that if you enlist you could be forced to take an experimental gene therapy treatment passed off as a vaccine in the middle of a media and government created "pandemic". It was spelled out very specifically like that. There were zero differences between taking a decades long established vaccine versus one brewed up in six weeks. Apples to apples there bud.

Your response reinforced my post. You'll allow any evil to thrive uncontested so long as it isn't affecting you. Go along to get along is the recommendation unless you're the one being ****ed over. Don't sweat it, you've got a lot more people on your side than I do.

 

[Ingomike]

Yeah, that's been covered. You don't get to sue the government unless the let you. Makes perfect sense and is complete ******** but hey, that's the law so it must be moral, right?

Exactly as I said. Yeah, it was in the paperwork that if you enlist you could be forced to take an experimental gene therapy treatment passed off as a vaccine in the middle of a media and government created "pandemic". It was spelled out very specifically like that. There were zero differences between taking a decades long established vaccine versus one brewed up in six weeks. Apples to apples there bud.

Your response reinforced my post. You'll allow any evil to thrive uncontested so long as it isn't affecting you. Go along to get along is the recommendation unless you're the one being ****ed over. Don't sweat it, you've got a lot more people on your side than I do.

You lost a private sector job or military job over the jab?

 

[phylodog]

You lost a private sector job or military job over the jab?

Private.