Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?

[phylodog]

We've got some double speaking future politicians in this thread.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It’s hard to talk to the owner when they don’t actually live there. Flyers are going up today to let all the neighbors know and all his “tenants” are getting fliers on their vehicles letting them know it’s not supposed to be an Air BnB.

I expressly bought a house in an HOA that does not allow rentals of any sort. I don’t want rentals in my neighborhood they end up trashy and run down

Well, you were obviously there when he was since you took a picture...

Depends on the rental, specifically the landlord. I've got three rentals might as well say next door to me. All three have different landlords. 2 never had a problem with, always kept up and looks nice. The third... Landlord doesn't care, show up with cash in hand and it's yours. One tenant was a crazy cat lady, and I mean actually certifiable crazy, meth head, cat lady. She was trapping feral and keeping them inside for pets. Animal control took out 20-30+ both times they came. Yes both, she paid the rent so the landlord let her stay. Until she was committed and couldn't pay him

 

[Timjoebillybob]

No questions at all, I am glad you have that option and I have others.

Nah we had the same options, just choose different. I did look at one house that had an HOA. It did have very little in the way of covenants. I believe mostly if not entirely regarding water use. Subdivision of about 40 or so homes on a shared private well. I was okay with it the wife wasn't. It was a little too far out of town. She wanted the kids to be able to walk/bike to visit friends.

They sure can but buying a property thinking you can change the covenants is stupider than marrying some gal thinking you can change her to what you want. Much better off getting what you want in the first place.

Mine were changed when the situation changed and our area became very profitable for renting, especially short term, and the owners wanted to keep it owner occupied.

My point was you said that some people evidently bought into a HOA with covenants they couldn't live with. That is not necessarily true. What if someone wanted more control over their neighbors than the HOA provided for so they bought 3 houses in a row so they could vet their neighbors? What if your HOA changed them to something you couldn't live with? I believe someone mentioned no guns allowed.

How is the truth disingenuous? Is it not true they did agree? What does when they agreed have to do with it? They did agree. If you sign a deed that has restrictions and or covenants one has agreed to those restrictions and covenants. Don’t agree to that which one does not want to agree.

It's disingenuous because the context was changing the covenants and the difficulty of getting a large group of people to agree on just about anything. Except dentists, you can get 4 out of 5 of those whores to agree on just about anything.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

I need to get to the dentist

 

[jkaetz]

We've got some double speaking future politicians in this thread.

You're not kidding here. I've really tried not to be snarky but I don't think it matters.

It is very easy to change covenants, as it should be. It is very hard to get consensus to change covenants as it should be.

So in short it's easy but hard. Thanks for clearing that up. Most people would simply say "It's hard to change covenants." rather than trying to say that the process is easy but the act is difficult as you need both parts to make a change.

Would you agree we should cancel our constitution and revote on it! No you would not.

You've made this comparison twice, it's not even apples/oranges. The constitution is nearly the antithesis of an HOA. It restricts government to ensure individual freedoms. The only similarity is that some who agreed to uphold it are not adhering to the agreement.

 

[Ingomike]

Well, you were obviously there when he was since you took a picture...

The pic was the Airbnb renters car, not the owner. He probably lives in a neighborhood that they would not allow rif raf like us.

 

[Ingomike]

My point was you said that some people evidently bought into a HOA with covenants they couldn't live with. That is not necessarily true.

I have seen that battle several times, people buy home in HOA that doesn’t allow RV’s, they don’t care, they don’t have one until they do, then, suddenly they want to fight.

What if someone wanted more control over their neighbors than the HOA provided for so they bought 3 houses in a row so they could vet their neighbors? What if your HOA changed them to something you couldn't live with? I believe someone mentioned no guns allowed.

I know of no home subdivision that has any control of inside the home. Do you? If one person buys three lots they have three votes. Vetting the neighbors becomes federal civil rights violations quickly.

 

[Ingomike]

So in short it's easy but hard. Thanks for clearing that up. Most people would simply say "It's hard to change covenants." rather than trying to say that the process is easy but the act is difficult as you need both parts to make a change.

Apparently you are not happy that all those you said don’t like and don’t want an HOA are not willing to agree with you and shut it down.

You've made this comparison twice, it's not even apples/oranges. The constitution is nearly the antithesis of an HOA. It restricts government to ensure individual freedoms. The only similarity is that some who agreed to uphold it are not adhering to the agreement.

My constitution is an agreement as to how we will live under a federal government and what that government will do. Seems pretty similar to me. My HOA is an agreement as to how we will live under a HOA and what that HOA will do.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It’s hard to talk to the owner when they don’t actually live there. Flyers are going up today to let all the neighbors know and all his “tenants” are getting fliers on their vehicles letting them know it’s not supposed to be an Air BnB.

I expressly bought a house in an HOA that does not allow rentals of any sort. I don’t want rentals in my neighborhood they end up trashy and run down

I noticed you didn't answer if the covenants prohibit letting your dog poop in someone's yard and not cleaning it up. Are you perhaps a scoffcovenant yourself?

 

[jkaetz]

Apparently you are not happy that all those you said don’t like and don’t want an HOA are not willing to agree with you and shut it down.

In general I'm actually quite happy. IMHO, your whole "it's easy but hard" argument is pissing on people's heads and telling them it's raining. You've been flippy flopping over and over about how easy/hard it is to change the covenants and this time you even put it all in the same post so I called it out. I like to see the world through different lenses but sometimes no matter how hard I try I can't understand some of them. I've tried, as have others, to provoke discussion outside of "it's the law", "they agreed to it when they bought the house", and "if you don't like it change it, it's easy but hard" however it doesn't seem you wish to have those discussions. It's clear that you have what you want and you believe it is the best thing ever. I'll agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I have seen that battle several times, people buy home in HOA that doesn’t allow RV’s, they don’t care, they don’t have one until they do, then, suddenly they want to fight.

Oh, I'm sure that it does happen. And I'm equally sure that it happens like I mentioned as well.

I know of no home subdivision that has any control of inside the home. Do you? If one person buys three lots they have three votes. Vetting the neighbors becomes federal civil rights violations quickly.

What prevents them from doing so? The covenants that you claim are easy to change? And I can think of one, they could only have carpeting in the bedrooms. Other rooms had to have hard surface flooring, and iirc it was limited by type/color. Area/throw rugs were allowed.

And only if they vet them for a prohibited reason. And there are possibly ways to legally get around those. Ask yourself why does Hooters and similar restaurants not have any servers? And legally speaking they don't. The large breasted person would who takes your order and brings your food/drinks isn't a server/waitress/etc. They are an entertainer/actress/etc.

 

[jamil]

Why are the actions of those that dislike HOA’s nonexistent? Why don’t they in league with the reluctant at minimum neuter the HOA?


Do not see the comparison. If they have the numbers why don’t they in league with the reluctant at minimum neuter the HOA?


Not alone but that majority you claim exists can.


It must be bad law and developers, can’t be that people just are not turned off enough by an HOA to do anything.

Again, this is a bad argument. I'm not convinced you understand the math of proportions. 60% is a lot less than 80%. And factor in the apathetic, and it's just not gonna happen.

If enough would leave it they would change it to what the majority demanded to sell their products at the highest price.

This isn't a market problem. The invisible hand is a fantasy, because the people who hold the power can thwart markets.

Why does almost every gas station in a given area have the exact same gas price? Is that market driven?

So you deny that markets work.

Markets work great when not thwarted by one side or the other. You get a market where one side has everyone over a barrel, markets get *** ****ed. And they do not recover themselves. The invisible hand is a myth.

Most developers do want the protection because the threat is real. If questions are properly worded most homeowners want the protection of their investment too.

Properly worded. You mean spun like you spun this thread? Like that?

Then buy your own lot, they are sold every day in most communities, and build your house. Oh yes, your kids want the pool to swim with their friends, your wife wants the walking trails and pickleball courts to meet up with her friends. It was you that was out voted in your own house.

WTF are you talking about? That neighborhood where I was on the board, we did buy a lot. We built a home. No developers were offering lots in neighborhoods that did not have HOA. We didn't have a pool. didn't have walking trails. No pickleball courts. I mean, dude, this was ~1990.

Well someone needs to correct all the lies spewed here with truth.

I'm trying. But you keep going on about that nonsense, trying to claim that 60% of the people should be able to overturn an HOA that requires 80% vote to change the covenants. And even then there's no provision to dissolve the HOA. But I think technically we could vote to neuter all the requirements. But the board is still responsible for paying the bills. So dues would still need to be collected.

 

[jamil]

Agreed. So why do you continue to say that it's easy to change the covenants?

I think because Mike wants to believe that he's in the majority. That most people are like him. So to make this fallacious argument work he needs covenants to be easy to change. If were easy to change the covenants, then it can't be the case that most people don't like HOA's, because then most HOA's would get dissolved.

The truth is, once an association is formed, it's gonna be around for way more important reasons than people are too apathetic to change it. It's hard to get rid of the association because it takes a supermajority of homes to vote it out, if there's even a provision to dissolve it in the bylaws.

And, IMO, this is precisely how HOA covenants should be created, by the actual homeowners. Not handed down by the developers. I'm betting this would eliminate a lot of the foolish rules while keeping leave the genuinely beneficial rules and make them feel more like a community. It would then truly be the residents coming together to actually agree upon the covenants.

I don't think Mike would like that, because then he'd have to use his own argument. If HOA's had to be formed by homeowners, if he's in the majority, most would vote to have them. But I'd wager if homeowners had to create them, I think it would be a lot easier for people to find homes in neighborhoods without HOA's.

 

[jamil]

Apparently you are not happy that all those you said don’t like and don’t want an HOA are not willing to agree with you and shut it down.

See, this is why it's so hard to take you seriously. I read the post you replied to, and then saw your reply. How you got this out of that is not rationally obvious. This looks more to me like what someone would say when they don't know how to argue.

My constitution is an agreement as to how we will live under a federal government and what that government will do. Seems pretty similar to me. My HOA is an agreement as to how we will live under a HOA and what that HOA will do.

But you're not listening to anyone. People are saying that they may have to agree because of circumstances, not because they like what they had to agree to. So it's more like reluctantly signing a contract despite one's misgivings.

 

[jamil]

The only important part is AGREEMENT.

No, that's the whole problem. you don't acknowledge that there is even another side.

Running an off the books hotel in a residential neighborhood is BS. Many neighbors near Airbnb’s report late noise and partying, just as most of us do when we travel with friends. Residential neighborhoods are just that, residential, where people live normal life.

One word. Zoning.

In areas near popular family attractions 2-3 families will rent a big house to bring the kids and dogs. The kids run like crazy in a new place, the dogs bark in a strange place, and after the kids are out down the adults sit out on the deck drinking until early morning.

All this happened to a friend of mine just about thirty feet from his bedroom window. A new group would show up every few days. That is not residential. The HOA shut it down, as they should.

Zoning.

Sights, sounds, smells. Changing oil is one thing but I don’t want to hear compressors, grinders, impacts, etc. running generally in the evening or weekend when other folks are trying to enjoy their own home.

Then move. No one asked you to move 20 feet away from someone who could make noises you don't like.

Crazy lives everywhere…

Okay. Wait. Are you saying the dude is crazy for not putting chemicals on his lawn, or she is because she sprayed his lawn?

I mean, either way, ironically, it was her I replaced on the board.

 

[bgcatty]

I would bet that a good number of HOA haters failed to do their due diligence when they bought their house being subject to an HOA and the relevant CCRs that govern the community. Then when they find out about the rules regarding caring for their property they bitch and moan repeatedly. I’ve seen this over the years and laugh at the ignorants who exhibit this behavior.

 

[jamil]

It is very easy to change covenants, as it should be. It is very hard to get consensus to change covenants as it should be.

We have a name for this. It's called speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Usually though, it's typically not done in the same sentence! Congratulations? I guess?

For the purposes you intend, it is not easy to change covenants, particularly to dissolve an HOA. And that's what you've been peddling.

 

[jamil]

I need to get to the dentist

Well, this thread should get you properly numb.

 

[repeter1977]

I would bet that a good number of HOA haters failed to do their due diligence when they bought their house being subject to an HOA and the relevant CCRs that govern the community. Then when they find out about the rules regarding caring for their property they bitch and moan repeatedly. I’ve seen this over the years and laugh at the ignorants who exhibit this behavior.

Na, just people with eyes wide open to the horror stories that don't want others subject to that. Just like seeing college students advocating for communism, we already know communism is bad, so we'd warn people that it's bad.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Courts do not take cases until they reach critical mass and a one or two time violation is not going to court.

Not quite sure where you get your legal info but here in IN about the only court that has a choice in accepting a case is the IN supreme court. All others must accept and hear them.

The pic was the Airbnb renters car, not the owner. He probably lives in a neighborhood that they would not allow rif raf like us.

You could be right. I went back and reread his post and it could be taken that way.

My constitution is an agreement as to how we will live under a federal government and what that government will do. Seems pretty similar to me. My HOA is an agreement as to how we will live under a HOA and what that HOA will do.

The Constitution is a grant of limited power to the fed govt. The Bill of Rights would be more properly called the Bill of Restrictions. In that it further restricts the feds. Heck it even say so in it's preamble.