Why didn't the 'Element of Surprise' help Zimmerman?

[Somemedic]

Dragon has presented laws and decent points, some I can't agree with but was repped none the less.

Calling him stupid for presenting his opinions and views was wrong. Bobzilla, you sir are out of line when youI resorted to name calling. Please try to offer something up in the form of good debate or just continue to lurk, quietly, while the big people talk.

 

[bobzilla]

Dragon has presented laws and decent points, some I can't agree with but was repped none the less.

Calling him stupid for presenting his opinions and views was wrong. Bobzilla, you sir are out of line when youI resorted to name calling. Please try to offer something up in the form of good debate or just continue to lurk, quietly, while the big people talk.

his first post was nothing more than trolling. That was what I responded to. I respond to trolls the same way every time. Don't like it, don't read it. Pretty simple. If he presented something after the troll post, good for him. But that was not how you start a conversation.

 

[Dragon]

his first post was nothing more than trolling. That was what I responded to. I respond to trolls the same way every time. Don't like it, don't read it. Pretty simple.

Another assumption of ignorance. I wasn't trolling then and I'm not trolling now but thank you for thinking I would care so much as to spend my precious web browsing time on a day off dealing with intelligent and humble people such as yourself.

 

[HICKMAN]

My WIFE...

If you love her, buy her a better handgun

Mine didn't survive the 1000 round break-in, can't carry a gun I don't trust.

 

[HICKMAN]

Explain to me exactly HOW Zimmerman was defending himself when he was the aggressor?

There is no evidence to back that up. Even if he chose to speak to TM, that doesn't make him an aggressor

Explain to me how, please. If I approach you and you turn to defend yourself against me, how can I be defending myself against you?

"Defend" against what? Speach? Following him?

He caused the altercation. He took the aggressive posture by approaching someone he shouldn't have.

How does one cause an altercation by approaching someone? I could approach you and call you all kinds of silly names, doesn't justify you attacking me.

He got his ass kicked by a 17 year-old because of it.

Glad to see you admit to TM committing assualt on GZ.

Now he's facing a murder charge for killing someone who was not guilty of any crimes at that time.

I'm pretty sure busting someone in the nose and bashing head against the sidewalk is a crime. Being that bashing a head against the sidewalk could cause death, self-defense is justified.

I'm sick of seeing people talk like Zimmerman did the right thing by shooting that kid while his ass should've been sitting inside of his vehicle waiting for the police to do their job.

He didn't just walk up and assassinate the kid. So what if he chose to see where the kid was going. An unknown person in a gated community and already had called the police. TM could of just took his ass to the house he was visiting... but chose not to.

When confronted (and we don't know the details), he chose to attack GZ, wouldn't surprise me he got mad that GZ called the cops, knowing he was already suspended from school.

And I'm glad "you're tired" of all the GZ talk.

One of these guys mentored black kids, stood up against the police to defend a black homeless man who had been beated by a cop's kid, and was working his way through college.

One of these guys was suspended from school and a known trouble maker.

 

[jgreiner]

Those of you who continually rehash the tired 'Element of Surprise' reasoning for CC need to explain why it did not work so well for George Zimmerman when he was attacked by Trayvon Martin.

Zimmerman suffered extensive injuries and IMO was lucky to remain conscious while drawing his pistol from concealment in the midst of an attack. Is THIS the type of 'Element of Surprise' we can all expect when we are attacked and CCing?

ETA: I meant the thread title to be "Thread #2" but I forgot

It's VERY possible that if he had been OCing, Trayvon wouldn't have messed with him.

 

[Dragon]

There is no evidence to back that up. Even if he chose to speak to TM, that doesn't make him an aggressor

You didn't show me any evidence showing otherwise.


"Defend" against what? Speach? Following him?

If I'm walking along minding my business and you follow me for several minutes before catching up to me to confront me, no matter what it's about, I will feel threatened until you prove I shouldn't be. Situational awareness dictates being defensive in a situation like that, especially with a larger individual approaching me in the dark, after following me in a vehicle. Are you saying you would politely turn around and expect the guy to be bringing you flowers?


How does one cause an altercation by approaching someone? I could approach you and call you all kinds of silly names, doesn't justify you attacking me.

I think I covered that in the previous statement. It's dark, you've followed me, you approached me in an apparently hostile way otherwise a reasonable person wouldn't react with violence.


Glad to see you admit to TM committing assualt on GZ.

I'm admitting that TM did commit battery (assault is verbal, not physical) by defending himself.

I'm pretty sure busting someone in the nose and bashing head against the sidewalk is a crime. Being that bashing a head against the sidewalk could cause death, self-defense is justified.

Just as I quoted it in Florida statute, so is restraining someone who hasn't committed a crime. They call it false imprisonment. Refer to earlier post for citation of FL statutes.


He didn't just walk up and assassinate the kid. So what if he chose to see where the kid was going. An unknown person in a gated community and already had called the police. TM could of just took his ass to the house he was visiting... but chose not to.

When confronted (and we don't know the details), he chose to attack GZ, wouldn't surprise me he got mad that GZ called the cops, knowing he was already suspended from school.

And I'm glad "you're tired" of all the GZ talk.

One of these guys mentored black kids, stood up against the police to defend a black homeless man who had been beated by a cop's kid, and was working his way through college.

One of these guys was suspended from school and a known trouble maker.

He chose to defend himself, put yourself in his shoes and tell me you wouldn't have felt threatened with thw way in which GZ behaved toward him. If you don't feel threatened then your situational awareness is seriously lacking. I've been in situations like that and I was DEFINITELY on the defensive.

I'm glad you're glad that I'm tired of people backing up a criminal who killed a child who could've been anyone's child allowed to walk after dark in a pretty good neighborhood, where he was lawfully allowed to be.

One of these guys made a minimum of 5 calls to police, 4 times referring to suspicious black men in his neighborhood as if they weren't allowed to be there and without any good reason. If I remember correctly (factoring in that the media portrayed it factually and correctly lol) none of those calls resulted in arrests or individuals being questioned by police. Seeing a kid in a hoodie walking through a neighborhood at night is clearly suspicious behavior to a highly trained individual such as George Zimmerman. I'm glad we have people like him protecting our.... Oh, nevermind, he's not protecting our streets and never has been.

This is my final statement pertaining to that actual case in this thread. I haven't seen a person yet able to show me evidence refuting what I say. I haven't heard a single person deny that he initiated the actions that resulted in the death of Trayvon Martin. I definitely feel this is pertinent to this discussion even though the OP doesn't think so because this is an issue the CC'er got himself involved in before deciding he had no option to use his handgun. I cannot, being the moral individual that I am, believe that it could ever be considered lawful when you knowingly or intentionally cause an action resulting in the death of another human being.

My apologies OP, I have tried to at least post my opinions with respect, and have several times touched on your subject.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

If you love her, buy her a better handgun

Mine didn't survive the 1000 round break-in, can't carry a gun I don't trust.

Hers has been flawless. I can't give her a better gun to carry than one she trusts and is comfortable with.

That being said you are very close to being #1 on my **** list. Do not tell me how to treat my wife or what is or isn't best for her or myself. You have NO idea how much I love her or what I would do for her.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

One of these guys mentored black kids, stood up against the police to defend a black homeless man who had been beated by a cop's kid, and was working his way through college.

One of these guys was suspended from school and a known trouble maker.

THIS ^ , would rep if I could .

To the OP , IMO OC is a horrible choice anytime , period .

If you play poker , do you hold your cards facing out wards so that every body can see them ?

TM was quick / agile / strong enough to get GZ on the ground and pound him .

If TM knew GZ was carrying he might have been quick / agile enough to get his gun from him and this would be a different story .

 

[mtgasten]

I never said it was better to CC in the situation. Let me clarify. I think that if GZ had initiated contact gun in hand, there wouldn't have been a physical altercation. The element of surprise did however occur because TM was murdered successfully by GZ. TM wouldn't have defended himself had he been presented with a gun in the first place.

this has not been proven yet. this system is based on innocence till proven guilty, people like you seem to forget that

 

[Bunnykid68]

Hers has been flawless. I can't give her a better gun to carry than one she trusts and is comfortable with.

That being said you are very close to being #1 on my **** list. Do not tell me how to treat my wife or what is or isn't best for her or myself. You have NO idea how much I love her or what I would do for her.

Was there any purple intended in there? Seems like he was just giving his opinion on a gun, not question your love for your wife

 

[Titanium_Frost]

To the OP , IMO OC is a horrible choice anytime , period .

If you play poker , do you hold your cards facing out wards so that every body can see them ?

TM was quick / agile / strong enough to get GZ on the ground and pound him .

If TM knew GZ was carrying he might have been quick / agile enough to get his gun from him and this would be a different story .

My goal is not to get the most money out of my opponent, my goal is to avoid a fight if possible #1 and to come out on top no matter what if #1 fails.

So given that logic if I knew I had 4 aces and I did not want to continue the game OF COURSE I'm going to show them and hope everyone else folds. Therefore I OC whenever possible.

One of my points is that I believe GZ did not or was not able to deploy his handgun fast enough from concealment. It could have been very different if he was able to draw it quicker. Perhaps not.

Another possibility would be the likelihood of someone who is unarmed attacking someone who obviously IS armed.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Was there any purple intended in there? Seems like he was just giving his opinion on a gun, not question your love for your wife

It touched a very sore spot for me. I will let him clarify if he wishes.

 

[youngda9]

this has not been proven yet. this system is based on innocence till proven guilty, people like you seem to forget that

So true. His post is so full of speculation presented as facts.

Apparently being followed or even spoken to is a good reason to lay down a life threatening whoopin...I learn something on here every day.

 

[Hayseed_40]

this has not been proven yet. this system is based on innocence till proven guilty, people like you seem to forget that

This is not the system - this is INGO.

 

[bwframe]

...it did help him he is alive after all.

This right here ^^^...

...unless, of course, you choose to start making assumptions.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

This is not the system - this is INGO.

INGO? I thought this is Sparta.

 

[henktermaat]

Explain to me exactly HOW Zimmerman was defending himself when he was the aggressor? Explain to me how, please. If I approach you and you turn to defend yourself against me, how can I be defending myself against you?

He caused the altercation. He took the aggressive posture by approaching someone he shouldn't have. He got his ass kicked by a 17 year-old because of it. Now he's facing a murder charge for killing someone who was not guilty of any crimes at that time. I'm sick of seeing people talk like Zimmerman did the right thing by shooting that kid while his ass should've been sitting inside of his vehicle waiting for the police to do their job.

Dumbest thing I've read today.

 

[possum_128]

Maybe he didn't intend on killing him initially? Maybe he didn't think he would get his ass kicked, or maybe he thought he would have the upper hand against someone smaller than him?

I'm just sick and tired of seeing people calling Trayvon Martin the attacker when he didn't follow George Zimmerman, nor did he get out of a vehicle and approach him.

Just because he had a deadly weapon doesn't mean he absolutely had to use it. I have a car but it isn't my only mode of transportation, if you get my drift. I believe Trayvon "Got the drop on him" because Zimmerman's initial intent was merely to stop/hold Martin either verbally or physically. I'd imagine he attempted both due to a quick escalation and began having his ass handed to him on a 17 year-old platter.

Wow. I hope you have told all of this to the poice investigating this shooting. seeing as you must have been there and witnessed the whole thing. The rest of us will have to see what really happened after the trial.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

I applaud you standing up to Mesker Zoo.
But posing a baited question with no answer is just silly.