Why didn't the 'Element of Surprise' help Zimmerman?

[Titanium_Frost]

I applaud you standing up to Mesker Zoo.
But posing a baited question with no answer is just silly.

So we can only talk about things to which we already know the answer to? This is going to get boring real quick.

I think it is so funny how often the OCers get told all of these "facts" that have NEVER happened or at least no proof is shown and yet I am attempting to dissect a scenario that DID happen and I get flak for it.

There is never going to be 'an answer' to the OC/CC debate. My position is just to get people thinking for themselves and offer up a point of view I hadn't seen discussed before. Take it for what its worth...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

This is why:

1. If Jorge Zimmerman was open carrying, he would be sitting in a jail cell awaiting trial.

2. If Jorge Zimmerman was open carrying, he would look like an a** clown and receive media scorn in addition to twitter threats against his life and his family.

3. If Jorge Zimmerman was open carrying it would have negative consequences as to the law of self-defense. The Gov. of a large state would convene a blue ribbon commission and investigate no duty to retreat laws if Jorge were open carrying.

 

[griffin]

none of those calls resulted in arrests or individuals being questioned by police.

Actually one of Zimmerman's calls did result in an arrest of a burglar.

 

[Hayseed_40]

There is never going to be 'an answer' to the OC/CC debate. My position is just to get people thinking for themselves and offer up a point of view I hadn't seen discussed before. Take it for what its worth...

Your premise question is biased when you talk about the "tired" argument twice. You were skewing off from the beginning.

 

[bobzilla]

Those that are pro/anti-OC are not going to change their mind from an internet debate. Period. All you get is a bumch of butt-hurt and stupidity spouted on both sides and people that refuse to consider the other possibiity. The rest of us that A.) don't give a **** how you carry and 2.) Carry how we want regardless of outside influences are going to do what we are already doing. We'll look at the other side, say "Good for you. I'm glad you can make that choice." and go on with our lives.

 

[jbombelli]

I'm not reading this whole thread before I say...

I'll bet Trayvon was pretty surprised when he got shot to death.

Now... to go back and read the thread.



edited: <sigh> That was almost entertaining. Almost.

 

[IN_Sheepdog]

Conclusions and more conclusions... forget the facts...

He chose to defend himself, put yourself in his shoes and tell me you wouldn't have felt threatened with thw way in which GZ behaved toward him. If you don't feel threatened then your situational awareness is seriously lacking. I've been in situations like that and I was DEFINITELY on the defensive.

I'm glad you're glad that I'm tired of people backing up a criminal who killed a child who could've been anyone's child (EVEN OBAMA's???) allowed to walk after dark in a pretty good neighborhood, where he was lawfully allowed to be.

One of these guys made a minimum of 5 calls to police, 4 times referring to suspicious black men in his neighborhood as if they weren't allowed to be there and without any good reason. If I remember correctly (factoring in that the media portrayed it factually and correctly lol) none of those calls resulted in arrests or individuals being questioned by police. Seeing a kid in a hoodie walking through a neighborhood at night is clearly suspicious behavior to a highly trained individual such as George Zimmerman. I'm glad we have people like him protecting our.... Oh, nevermind, he's not protecting our streets and never has been.

This is my final statement pertaining to that actual case in this thread. I haven't seen a person yet able to show me evidence refuting what I say. I haven't heard a single person deny that he initiated the actions that resulted in the death of Trayvon Martin. I definitely feel this is pertinent to this discussion even though the OP doesn't think so because this is an issue the CC'er got himself involved in before deciding he had no option to use his handgun. I cannot, being the moral individual that I am, believe that it could ever be considered lawful when you knowingly or intentionally cause an action resulting in the death of another human being.

Wow... tried and convicted and sentenced, Almost as fast as the Media and Sharpton/Jackson etc... Dragon you are so completely and totally sure that you KNOW the facts of this individual case (TM/GZ) that you were NOT witness to, that you can not even look beyond your own biases to see even the remotest possibility that GZ may have been justified in the unfortunate loss of TM's life. YOU do not, (nor do any of us at this point) have all the facts, yet you spew on here all this OPINION and ASSUMPTIONS in an effort to condemn what is still in this society an innocent man. People have not "refuted" your arguments as they are NOT arguments at all... They are media biased obscure and anecdotal evidence which does not mean that YOU have the answer... based on your first postings. (which did appear like trolling) as well as your vigorous and unwavering attacks on anyone who disagrees with you that GZ is evil, and TM is an "innocent child"? come on... are you going to say his injuries (GZ) were self inflicted or some other silliness...?

The original post, was an interesting discussion point (T-F don't let that go to your head! ) as to the never ending, never answered OC/CC debate and attempted to put it into a real world context. Your spewing of your own OPINION on the case and more so your CONCLUSIONS, does not discuss what the topic was to be about and does not add to the dialog.

I find it interesting that since the incident in February with TM/GZ, the dozens and dozens of murders that have taken place, black/white, black/black whatever, and yet little to nothing shows up in the Media... Are these victim's lives less valuable than TM's, simply because they did not garner all the media frenzy and publicity...?


================================
As to the OP... there was a time when an honest man carried openly, and it was only the thieves, gamblers, and criminals who carried concealed. An honest man does not need to carry concealed as he does not carry evil intent or ill will toward his fellow man. HOWEVER, our society has changed this around to the point where we feel we must conceal what is our given right of self defense... So, although I often carry concealed, I also choose to open carry as well as it often leads to a conversation with others in society who might actually LEARN something about the RKBA's. People have become accustomed to NOT seeing firearms to the extent that when they do, it becomes an "issue". Until our society again realizes that it is not the object, but the person holding the object that is evil will we ever get over this MWAG syndrome.....

 

[Dragon]

Since we're going to continue this discussion with quotes of mine then all of you please answer this. If I'm so stupid, and my assumptions are so completely retarded, why is he being charged with murder by a special prosecutor who has everything to lose by charging an innocent man and losing the case? That person did the investigation with a team of more than a dozen others and together they felt there's reason enough to charge him with murder. If I'm so ridiculously stupid then why do people more educated than any of you (assumption) put the man in jail and charge him with a crime?

Apparently you're all MUCH more educated on the subjected than I am, let alone the prosecutor and investigators involved. I apologize, I wasn't aware how many people here had JD's and PhD's.

 

[tyler_durden]

Since we're going to continue this discussion with quotes of mine then all of you please answer this. If I'm so stupid, and my assumptions are so completely retarded, why is he being charged with murder by a special prosecutor who has everything to lose by charging an innocent man and losing the case? That person did the investigation with a team of more than a dozen others and together they felt there's reason enough to charge him with murder. If I'm so ridiculously stupid then why do people more educated than any of you (assumption) put the man in jail and charge him with a crime?

Apparently you're all MUCH more educated on the subjected than I am, let alone the prosecutor and investigators involved. I apologize, I wasn't aware how many people here had JD's and PhD's.

You need to get off your high horse buddy. You post on here and completely change the subject from the question asked by the OP in the first place. You rattle off assumptions about the situation that you probably know very little about and when someone challenges your view you get your panties in a twist.

 

[jbombelli]

Since we're going to continue this discussion with quotes of mine then all of you please answer this. If I'm so stupid, and my assumptions are so completely retarded, why is he being charged with murder by a special prosecutor who has everything to lose by charging an innocent man and losing the case? That person did the investigation with a team of more than a dozen others and together they felt there's reason enough to charge him with murder. If I'm so ridiculously stupid then why do people more educated than any of you (assumption) put the man in jail and charge him with a crime?

Apparently you're all MUCH more educated on the subjected than I am, let alone the prosecutor and investigators involved. I apologize, I wasn't aware how many people here had JD's and PhD's.

People believed in Mike Nifong too.

 

[netsecurity]

An alternate set of events just crossed my mind. What if GZ tried to detain TM by drawing his weapon, but fumbled it because he was CC'ing, leading TM to attack GZ in fear of being shot. If this were the case, and a struggle over the weapon ensued, TM would have been doing everything possible to prevent GZ from deholstering his weapon, including trying to knock him unconscious. GZ would have been taking punches to the face, while his hands were still occupied with drawing the sidearm, which could explain why he never punched TM back (with enough force to leave a mark apparently).

On the flip side, TM still could have ambushed GZ, but again, the lack of evidence that GZ punched TM indicates to me that GZ was TOTALLY preoccupied with drawing his sidearm, instead of returning blows. And we all know he took significant hits to the head, which had to take several seconds to occur.

I'm going to have to lean towards -1 for CC and +1 for OC in this case. I'm completely objective on the oc/cc debate, but I'm starting to think that if GZ was OC'ing, Trayvon would still be alive. Whether he was really ambushed or not, it seems the struggle would've ended before it began if GZ had a quick clean draw. I now think the evidence overwhelmingly points to a struggle deholstering the weapon, which frankly never crossed my mind before.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Dragon has presented laws and decent points, some I can't agree with but was repped none the less.

Calling him stupid for presenting his opinions and views was wrong. Bobzilla, you sir are out of line when you I resorted to name calling. Please try to offer something up in the form of good debate or just continue to lurk, quietly, while the big people talk.

This!

 

[youngda9]

An alternate set of events just crossed my mind. What if GZ tried to detain TM by drawing his weapon, but fumbled it because he was CC'ing, leading TM to attack GZ in fear of being shot. If this were the case, and a struggle over the weapon ensued, TM would have been doing everything possible to prevent GZ from deholstering his weapon, including trying to knock him unconscious. GZ would have been taking punches to the face, while his hands were still occupied with drawing the sidearm, which could explain why he never punched TM back (with enough force to leave a mark apparently).

On the flip side, TM still could have ambushed GZ, but again, the lack of evidence that GZ punched TM indicates to me that GZ was TOTALLY preoccupied with drawing his sidearm, instead of returning blows. And we all know he took significant hits to the head, which had to take several seconds to occur.

I'm going to have to lean towards -1 for CC and +1 for OC in this case. I'm completely objective on the oc/cc debate, but I'm starting to think that if GZ was OC'ing, Trayvon would still be alive. Whether he was really ambushed or not, it seems the struggle would've ended before it began if GZ had a quick clean draw. I now think the evidence overwhelmingly points to a struggle deholstering the weapon, which frankly never crossed my mind before.

So GZ is now the type of guy that would be better off OC-ing...what a great example and proponent of the cause he would be, ohhh-kaaaayy.

 

[iChokePeople]

An alternate set of events just crossed my mind. What if GZ tried to detain TM by drawing his weapon, but fumbled it because he was CC'ing, leading TM to attack GZ in fear of being shot. If this were the case, and a struggle over the weapon ensued, TM would have been doing everything possible to prevent GZ from deholstering his weapon, including trying to knock him unconscious. GZ would have been taking punches to the face, while his hands were still occupied with drawing the sidearm, which could explain why he never punched TM back (with enough force to leave a mark apparently).

On the flip side, TM still could have ambushed GZ, but again, the lack of evidence that GZ punched TM indicates to me that GZ was TOTALLY preoccupied with drawing his sidearm, instead of returning blows. And we all know he took significant hits to the head, which had to take several seconds to occur.

I'm going to have to lean towards -1 for CC and +1 for OC in this case. I'm completely objective on the oc/cc debate, but I'm starting to think that if GZ was OC'ing, Trayvon would still be alive. Whether he was really ambushed or not, it seems the struggle would've ended before it began if GZ had a quick clean draw. I now think the evidence overwhelmingly points to a struggle deholstering the weapon, which frankly never crossed my mind before.

Seriously? C'mon, come clean, how much beer did this take? Can I make up my own version of what happened to support some other conclusion? What if the whole thing started because GZ was OC'ing, but his other weapon was taken by Iranian ninja women, which led to TM trying to come to GZ's rescue and the rest was all just a tragic misunderstanding? That leads me to a big -1 for OC. Evidence overwhelmingly points to a struggle deholstering? Huh? I'm hoping my sarcasm-detector just isn't properly fueled and caffeinated yet this morning and that your joke was really just a clever ploy.

 

[dusterboy49]

I never said it was better to CC in the situation. Let me clarify. I think that if GZ had initiated contact gun in hand, there wouldn't have been a physical altercation. The element of surprise did however occur because TM was murdered successfully by GZ. TM wouldn't have defended himself had he been presented with a gun in the first place.

In this quote you state TM was "murdered successfully".
Seems like you've convicted GZ without a trial.
With all the facts as yet unknown, it is silly to make this assumption.

 

[bobzilla]

You need to get off your high horse buddy. You post on here and completely change the subject from the question asked by the OP in the first place. You rattle off assumptions about the situation that you probably know very little about and when someone challenges your view you get your panties in a twist.

This. But I'm the bad person because I called him out on his stupidity.

 

[bobzilla]

This!

Yeah... from Mr. He-Should-Pay-without-a-trial.

 

[The Spud]

ETA: Is "Stupi" the plural of "Stupid?"

TF, no, it's short for a new subspecies of human, Homo Erectus Stupi

 

[dusterboy49]

I applaud you standing up to Mesker Zoo.
But posing a baited question with no answer is just silly.[/q

 

[dusterboy49]

Was there any purple intended in there? Seems like he was just giving his opinion on a gun, not question your love for your wife

^^^This^^^

TF, I don't think any disrespect was intended.