Why didn't the 'Element of Surprise' help Zimmerman?

[Double T]

He got his ass kicked because he was CCing and couldn't get to his weapon in his waistband.

Element of Suprise be damned if you are in a ground and pound situation.

This is EXACTLY why you should carry more than one means to defend yourself, and your hands and feet should be a competent second line of defense. Your mindset being the first.

You see someone skulking around the alley by your garage at sundown and tell me you aren't going to tell them to get the **** away. Didn't think so. The SD aspect of this crime is NOT the point of the thread. He HAD to defend himself and couldn't get to his gun without a beating.

Had his gun been OC, he could have used retention training or a secondary weapon to subdue the attack AND he may not have been beaten as badly due to the distraction of the gun to the kid. Also, the kid may have waivered altogether thinking he may be off duty LEO. Who knows, that's not the point of the thread.

I think that this is a very major flaw in the case for CC. Yeah, store robbery EoS is important. 1v1 and you are screwed (without training)

 

[mainjet]

OC or CC to me is does not matter. We can argue it to death until we all agree and that will never happen. To me, the best answer is carry how you feel the most comfortable and train in that fashion.

To the point - Would the OC have kept the surprise attack from happening? I have no idea. What I do know if LEOs are attacked all the time while they are on duty and obviously OCing. They also have backup available and video running yet some people are crazy enough to attack them. Unfortunately some of the officers are killed.

We cannot and should not force people to OC or CC. An individual needs to be comfortable with their choice of carrying. Also, I think that the mere fact that you have a gun will not stop all attacks and does not guarantee you victory over your assailant. There are other factors like training, situational awareness, Gods grace and a well placed shot under tremendous stress that will keep you alive.

I can personally careless if a person chooses OC or CC. I just feel that if you feel confident that you can react properly, both physically and within the law, then you should carry a gun for personal protection if you choose.

Maybe travon would not have seen the gun in the dark. Maybe Travon felt he could overpower Zimmerman even though Zimmerman had a gun. Maybe Travon was just flat nuts right then. These are questions that cannot be answered by the OC/CC debate.

One thing that is probably true is even if Zimmerman was OCing, he may not have drawn that gun until Travon was right in front of him and doing something that legally let George pull that gun - OC/or CC. Because Travon did not have a gun. We see video after video of LEO's that have face to face contact with someone and they do not draw their weapon because nothing has happened yet that rises to the level of drawing that weapon. Then it happens so quick that they are not getting punched, they are woosey and they are trying to fight back but cannot get their gun.

The bottom line is would OC have kept the attack from happening in the first place? Who the hell knows. But what we do know is that the carrying of the gun, together with the ability to properly use it is what saved Zimmermans life.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Since we're going to continue this discussion with quotes of mine then all of you please answer this. If I'm so stupid, and my assumptions are so completely retarded, why is he being charged with murder by a special prosecutor who has everything to lose by charging an innocent man and losing the case? That person did the investigation with a team of more than a dozen others and together they felt there's reason enough to charge him with murder. If I'm so ridiculously stupid then why do people more educated than any of you (assumption) put the man in jail and charge him with a crime?

Apparently you're all MUCH more educated on the subjected than I am, let alone the prosecutor and investigators involved. I apologize, I wasn't aware how many people here had JD's and PhD's.

In case no one else has mentioned it to you, why don't you head on over to this thread and make your feelings known. You'll be eviscerated, but you won't be off-topic.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._shot_dead_by_neighborhood_watch_captain.html

 

[bobzilla]

OC or CC to me is does not matter. We can argue it to death until we all agree and that will never happen. To me, the best answer is carry how you feel the most comfortable and train in that fashion.

To the point - Would the OC have kept the surprise attack from happening? I have no idea. What I do know if LEOs are attacked all the time while they are on duty and obviously OCing. They also have backup available and video running yet some people are crazy enough to attack them. Unfortunately some of the officers are killed.

We cannot and should not force people to OC or CC. An individual needs to be comfortable with their choice of carrying. Also, I think that the mere fact that you have a gun will not stop all attacks and does not guarantee you victory over your assailant. There are other factors like training, situational awareness, Gods grace and a well placed shot under tremendous stress that will keep you alive.

I can personally careless if a person chooses OC or CC. I just feel that if you feel confident that you can react properly, both physically and within the law, then you should carry a gun for personal protection if you choose.

Maybe travon would not have seen the gun in the dark. Maybe Travon felt he could overpower Zimmerman even though Zimmerman had a gun. Maybe Travon was just flat nuts right then. These are questions that cannot be answered by the OC/CC debate.

One thing that is probably true is even if Zimmerman was OCing, he may not have drawn that gun until Travon was right in front of him and doing something that legally let George pull that gun - OC/or CC. Because Travon did not have a gun. We see video after video of LEO's that have face to face contact with someone and they do not draw their weapon because nothing has happened yet that rises to the level of drawing that weapon. Then it happens so quick that they are not getting punched, they are woosey and they are trying to fight back but cannot get their gun.

The bottom line is would OC have kept the attack from happening in the first place? Who the hell knows. But what we do know is that the carrying of the gun, together with the ability to properly use it is what saved Zimmermans life.

Well said. Rep inbound.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I'm not sure if there is a lesson to be learned from this particular incident vis-a-vis OC vs CC. Based on what we think we know about Z.'s personality, he probably shouldn't have been carrying either OC OR CC, because he obviously wasn't prepared to go into a situation where it might have been needed. He certainly didn't display the sort of Situational Awareness necessary to act before he was put in fear of his life. Whether M. would have attacked him had he been OC at the time is questionable since it was getting dark and it was raining. Had it been legal for Z. to OC, M. still might not have seen it, considering the weather and lighting conditions.

 

[youngda9]

To the point - Would the OC have kept the surprise attack from happening? I have no idea. What I do know if LEOs are attacked all the time while they are on duty and obviously OCing. They also have backup available and video running yet some people are crazy enough to attack them. Unfortunately some of the officers are killed.

SO TRUE. +1 to you.

Man Attacks Female Police Officer Video by *Im Still Bill* - Myspace Video

 

[iChokePeople]

I'm not sure if there is a lesson to be learned from this particular incident vis-a-vis OC vs CC. Based on what we think we know about Z.'s personality, he probably shouldn't have been carrying either OC OR CC, because he obviously wasn't prepared to go into a situation where it might have been needed. He certainly didn't display the sort of Situational Awareness necessary to act before he was put in fear of his life. Whether M. would have attacked him had he been OC at the time is questionable since it was getting dark and it was raining. Had it been legal for Z. to OC, M. still might not have seen it, considering the weather and lighting conditions.

By those standards, many of US shouldn't be carrying, either.

 

[BroadbandBrat]

I so enjoy the off-topic INGO pre-trial going on, so entertaining....

 

[possum_128]

Since we're going to continue this discussion with quotes of mine then all of you please answer this. If I'm so stupid, and my assumptions are so completely retarded, why is he being charged with murder by a special prosecutor who has everything to lose by charging an innocent man and losing the case? That person did the investigation with a team of more than a dozen others and together they felt there's reason enough to charge him with murder. If I'm so ridiculously stupid then why do people more educated than any of you (assumption) put the man in jail and charge him with a crime?

Apparently you're all MUCH more educated on the subjected than I am, let alone the prosecutor and investigators involved. I apologize, I wasn't aware how many people here had JD's and PhD's.

In two words, the media. In your mind he is guilty and in the old west you are the kind who would lynch him. So is your kind of thinking completely retarded? Only you know, unless you are completely retarded. I know I don't know who is guility of what, that's why we have trials. Why don't you wait until all the facts come out before you believe everything you hear or read from the media.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

By those standards, many of US shouldn't be carrying, either.

Perhaps that's true, but I'm actually surprised that Z. managed to press the trigger at all, given what we've been told about him. There is ZERO point in carrying a firearm (or anything else, for that matter) if you aren't mentally prepared to use it. At least the audience here has mostly made up their minds that they will use a firearm for self-defense, not for show or for a form of "Dutch Courage".

 

[iChokePeople]

Perhaps that's true, but I'm actually surprised that Z. managed to press the trigger at all, given what we've been told about him. There is ZERO point in carrying a firearm (or anything else, for that matter) if you aren't mentally prepared to use it. At least the audience here has mostly made up their minds that they will use a firearm for self-defense, not for show or for a form of "Dutch Courage".

How does one know if he/she is mentally prepared to take someone's life in any given situation? Even being able to do so in one situation doesn't really mean you won't hesitate in another situation. Lots of people think they won't hesitate, and they're fooling themselves.

 

[Hayseed_40]

Perhaps that's true, but I'm actually surprised that Z. managed to press the trigger at all, given what we've been told about him. There is ZERO point in carrying a firearm (or anything else, for that matter) if you aren't mentally prepared to use it. At least the audience here has mostly made up their minds that they will use a firearm for self-defense, not for show or for a form of "Dutch Courage".

Well the OC'ers do it for show...

 

[bobzilla]

How does one know if he/she is mentally prepared to take someone's life in any given situation? Even being able to do so in one situation doesn't really mean you won't hesitate in another situation. Lots of people think they won't hesitate, and they're fooling themselves.

This. the people that shout the loudest about how they'll shoot first, ask questions later are NOT the people I would depend on to save my ass. If you can't be honest enough with yourself to know that there is a chance you can freeze up, or make a poor decision, then you are not someone I can trust.

I hope that if I ever find myself in that position I will make the right call.... but until you've been there and handled it, you'll never really know. I just hope I never have to find out if I can or cannot pull the trigger.

 

[mtgasten]

SO TRUE. +1 to you.

Man Attacks Female Police Officer Video by *Im Still Bill* - Myspace Video

was that guy ever caught?

 

[youngda9]

was that guy ever caught?

He is serving 60yrs for assaulting the officer.

Put a fork in this thread.

 

[figley]

Would that haymaker have been thrown if TM had known that GZ was armed with a handgun? I think not. I still maintain that had GZ been OCing, that this altercation would not have escalated to the point of shoots being fired. TM allegedly attacked GZ because GZ was following him. Had TM known that GZ was armed, it is logical to assume that his actions would have been different. IMO if GZ was able and willing to OC TM would still be alive and GZ would be a free man today.

I want to agree with you, but your theory is predicated on the notion that TM was thinking and acting rationally.

 

[Mr. Habib]

I want to agree with you, but your theory is predicated on the notion that TM was thinking and acting rationally.

True. I don't know what I was thinking, I've been married too long to assume that anyone is thinking or acting rationally.

 

[mainjet]

SO TRUE. +1 to you.

Man Attacks Female Police Officer Video by *Im Still Bill* - Myspace Video

That video is actully is the exact video that was running through my head when I made the post. Along with the video that was posted a while back where a crazy guy retrieved his rifle from the truck and started shoting at an officer who was shooting back wildly. The officer died...

 

[BroadbandBrat]

Well the OC'ers do it for show...

Shouldn't that be "OC'ers do it fo sho"?

 

[Hayseed_40]

Shouldn't that be "OC'ers do it fo sho"?

fa shizzle