What is the end goal of neutering this countries police forces?

[AA&E]

I didn't say anything about criminals being combatants in a war zone nor did I attempt to justify any unreasonable uses of force. What I am attempting to get across is that many believe the police are the problem, not the violent citizens in this country which is ridiculous. We are told by the progressives that we aren't supposed to judge any certain group based on the actions of a few (rioters being a good example) yet those same progressives are demanding that the police be stripped of their arms and ability to perform their duties based on an extremely limited number of examples.

It is either as I stated originally, that liberals believe everything will be ok if we just deal with all of the evil police or it is an attempt to neuter a large portion of the what would be resistance when those pulling the strings decide its time to take over.

But do you believe some police ARE the problem? Obviously we've had several instances in recent months with varying degree of WTF actions utilized by police officers. Perhaps the point of view that police aren't the problem, even when faced with clear examples, is what creates the general distrust and attitude toward law enforcement. That blue line mentality where you can't go against someone that you may have to rely upon to cover you at some point down the road.. police.. policing their own would have gone along way to prevent this from getting to this point.

There are two more examples in the news last night of questionable and above the law attitudes demonstrated by law enforcement. Even with all the negative publicity and attention these acts are generating you still have some law enforcement that refuse transparency. I saw an article about a shooting of an elderly drunk driver in his driveway that occurred last year. The video reportedly shows the officer running up to the vehicle and immediately firing through the closed door killing the occupant. Was the drunk driver in the wrong? Absolutely. But it is not an officers job to hand down punishment for crimes. They are there to facilitate arrest for the courts to address. In this instance the police officials have refused to release the video because they feel it would result in negative publicity. Really? Well no ****. One of your officers shot a senior citizen under questionable circumstances.

In another example a sheriff (head honcho) shot an acquaintance in Georgia, refused to cooperate with investigators. There are no claims being made regarding this being part of an investigation. He was just simply allowed to walk away without giving his side of the story. Think that would work for any of us outside the law enforcement community? Of course not.

Transparency, self policing (see the way law enforcement responded when the video leaked of the guy getting shot in the back a few weeks ago), teaching some level of restraint so officers are of the mindset that lethal force is the last option... not one of the first.

 

[AA&E]

I think so. Not all crimes are immoral, and not all enforcement is just.

agreed

 

[phylodog]

But do you believe some police ARE the problem? Obviously we've had several instances in recent months with varying degree of WTF actions utilized by police officers. Perhaps the point of view that police aren't the problem, even when faced with clear examples, is what creates the general distrust and attitude toward law enforcement. That blue line mentality where you can't go against someone that you may have to rely upon to cover you at some point down the road.. police.. policing their own would have gone along way to prevent this from getting to this point.

I believe some police officers are a problem and therein lies the rub.

teaching some level of restraint so officers are of the mindset that lethal force is the last option... not one of the first.

An utterly and thoroughly ridiculous statement. Find me an agency which teaches deadly force as one of the first options, please. Some agencies do a better job than others when it comes to training its officers but training is just that, an attempt to improve performance. The results are predominantly based on the willingness and ability of the individual being trained to absorb and apply that training. That's too inconvenient for many to understand or requires emotional maturity beyond that of an eight year old apparently.

 

[AA&E]

I believe some police officers are a problem and therein lies the rub.



An utterly and thoroughly ridiculous statement. Find me an agency which teaches deadly force as one of the first options, please. Some agencies do a better job than others when it comes to training its officers but training is just that, an attempt to improve performance. The results are predominantly based on the willingness and ability of the individual being trained to absorb and apply that training. That's too inconvenient for many to understand or requires emotional maturity beyond that of an eight year old apparently.

I never suggested the training instrusts lethal force to be the first option, just that the training hasn't created a situation where it is used as the last resort. In the instance of the senior citizen shot through the door I previously mentioned, prosecutors comments indicate the officer wasn't even to the door and hadn't even stopped walking toward the vehicle when he started shooting. Then the refusal to release the footage? If it were a clean shoot, they'd have nothing to fear from the footage being released.

But lets take lethal force off the table. Last night I saw a news article about a 20 something year old woman arrested for drunk and disorderly. An officers report indicates he used an arm bar hold and guided her to the floor. Video would suggest he did no guiding but rather slammed her face into the concrete with such force that the impact created an 18" circle of blood spatter and shattered her face. Literally her entire side of her skull was crushed. You could actually hear it on his body cam audio as it crunched. Initially no reprimands handed down. No suspensions. Now this is getting into the media, and the court system (lawsuit), and all of a sudden (nearly a year later) there is an investigation with IA. Police, policing there own and showing restraint would go a long way in reducing the perception (and reality) of brutality. This was a 120lbs woman charged with a misdemeanor offense that was savaged assaulted by a man that outweighed her by 100lbs. If he hadn't been wearing a badge he would have immediately been charged with felony assault and jailed until trial or bailing out. Levels of force exceeding what is necessary and justified shouldn't be overlooked under any circumstance. If someone is too big a ***** to do the job without breaking a woman's face, he shouldn't have the job.

You speak of emotional maturity? There is never a mirror around when one is needed.... if the officers had the ability to act responsibly and maturely this wouldn't be an issue.

 

[phylodog]

I never suggested the training instrusts lethal force to be the first option

That right?

teaching some level of restraint so officers are of the mindset that lethal force is the last option... not one of the first.

Hmmm.

You can find as many examples of officers doing things against their policy or in violation of the law as you want. It doesn't change the fact that those officers were not doing what they were trained to do and their actions are not an indictment of LE across the board.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is a huge part of what has brought this country to the second rate status we are now enjoying. Punishing the masses for the actions of the few falls right into that playbook but its all fun and games until you're on the receiving end.

 

[bonkers1919]

Neuter local and state police and fill the void with Federal troops.

Power = control, control = power.

 

[Birds Away]

The view seems to be pretty good from the cheap seats.

 

[AA&E]

That right?



Hmmm.

You can find as many examples of officers doing things against their policy or in violation of the law as you want. It doesn't change the fact that those officers were not doing what they were trained to do and their actions are not an indictment of LE across the board.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is a huge part of what has brought this country to the second rate status we are now enjoying. Punishing the masses for the actions of the few falls right into that playbook but its all fun and games until you're on the receiving end.

Yeah.. that's right. I said they should train so firing isn't a tactics that is utilized so quickly. I never said the training was teaching to fire quickly. You are letting your emotions get in the way of rational thinking...

Fine officers that turn a blind eye to overzealous tactics aren't so fine in my opinion. And there are way more of those than the ones that actually utilize the tactics, but their refusal to do a damn thing about it is what allows them to operate in this manner with impunity.

 

[phylodog]

Yeah.. that's right. I said they should train so firing isn't a tactics that is utilized so quickly. I never said the training was teaching to fire quickly. You are letting your emotions get in the way of rational thinking...

Fine officers that turn a blind eye to overzealous tactics aren't so fine in my opinion. And there are way more of those than the ones that actually utilize the tactics, but their refusal to do a damn thing about it is what allows them to operate in this manner with impunity.

Again, find me an agency that trains to fire quickly. We train to use the appropriate and reasonable level of force required in any given situation. If officers operate outside of that training, policy and law they are on their own.

Once again we find a way to implicate innocent officers in the actions of those who commit these acts. God Bless America, the land where no one is responsible for themselves any longer. Ain't it grand?

There are approximately 900 officers on my agency right now who are on duty. Do you know what they're doing? Neither do I. Shame on this darned blind eye of mine.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

That isn't at all what you said. Let e do a mayor of Baltimore for you. You said they need to train for lethal force to be the last option instead of one of the first. Phylo showed you and so did I. You did not say: They should train so firing isn't a tactics that is utilized so quickly.

Stop trying to CYA and just be straight with us.

 

[Zoub]

Baltimore Mayor announces partnership with DOJ to reform Police. Just now.

I have said for a couple years this is reminding me of the 60's and early 70's. I was young but I was a mil spec son of a career soldier and combat vet living in civilian communities including LA. People were reacting to and attacking all symbols of power, authority, and government, even their houses, spouses and children.

Now you see the same tactics being used by Federal govt against state and local level power, especially through the network of willing toadies developed by the neighborhood organizers. Inept and corrupt mayors are willing accomplices to this kind of power grab. There will always be bad people in every aspect of society. Focusing on cops does not change the fact that there are many people who make bad choices and then are not held responsible. The same people continually come in contact with law enforcement through bad choices. It is their "career choice" that puts them in cuffs. Then we attack cops who are the tip of the spear keeping this crap in check? Yeah, that works. It is a distraction. If cops were trained to kill, there would have already been coups in every city over 25,000 people.

Cops may suffer from burn out and stress but that is because in their hearts they know they are witnessing the begin of the collapse of most major cities.

 

[bmoan]

In basic one of the first things a cop learns is force continuum, the theory of force level and the thought process that guides the decision to use deadly force. come on the thought that any cop wants to get caught up in all the crap that goes along with PAS, righteous or not is ludicrous. If one is suspected of being involved in a bad shoot people want punishment handed down on the spot. Are the police not entitled to the investigation that would bring the facts to light,? Why must we make a judgment and start a riot on the face of what might have happened. If the cop has done wrong he will be punished according to all general orders, SOP's and laws that apply. We need to take a breath and let justice prevail as we do in criminal cases.

 

[AA&E]

Again, find me an agency that trains to fire quickly. We train to use the appropriate and reasonable level of force required in any given situation. If officers operate outside of that training, policy and law they are on their own.

Once again we find a way to implicate innocent officers in the actions of those who commit these acts. God Bless America, the land where no one is responsible for themselves any longer. Ain't it grand?

There are approximately 900 officers on my agency right now who are on duty. Do you know what they're doing? Neither do I. Shame on this darned blind eye of mine.

But if firing quickly is the end result are they driving home and reinforcing the training that stipulates they shouldn't??? I haven't singled you out. If you have a guilty conscience that dictates this post references you, that is something for you to work out. There were officers present when the before mentioned woman was slammed face first into the concrete, none of them said a thing. They are all culpable because the officer that did that knew that would be the response of his actions... no response at all.

 

[cobber]

If you have a guilty conscience that dictates this post references you, that is something for you to work out.

 

[AA&E]

That isn't at all what you said. Let e do a mayor of Baltimore for you. You said they need to train for lethal force to be the last option instead of one of the first. Phylo showed you and so did I. You did not say: They should train so firing isn't a tactics that is utilized so quickly.

Stop trying to CYA and just be straight with us.

I said train so lethal force is the last option... there is a separation between that and the shooting first comment. There is no mention of training to shoot first, merely the fact that time and again that is what we are seeing the reality to be. You can add to my thoughts whatever you want. I don't have to cover my ass. I don't answer to you.

 

[AA&E]

See his "900 officers on duty and my poor blind eye" comment. He damn well knows I wasn't referring to him with ANY of the before mentioned incidents.. especially since not a one of them occurred in Indiana. that's the blue line mentality reareing it's head. None of this has ever been in reference to him, but yet he views it as a personal attack. See why nothing ever changes?

 

[cobber]

See his "900 officers on suty and my poor blind eye comment. He damn well knows I wasn't referring to him with ANY of the before mentioned incidents.. especially since not a one of them occurred in Indiana.

I'm just asking a question... whoops, wrong thread...

 

[phylodog]

But if firing quickly is the end result are they driving home and reinforcing the training that stipulates they shouldn't???

I don't know, do you? As I mentioned, some agencies are better than others at providing meaningful and effective training. If you're an expert in adult learning perhaps your local agency could benefit from your expertise.

I haven't singled you out. If you have a guilty conscience that dictates this post references you, that is something for you to work out.

I can assure you that I sleep quite well at night in spite of having a healthy conscience. It's not being singled out that concerns me, I'm quite capable of defending myself and my performance throughout this career. What ruffles my feathers is when people like you try to hold me accountable for things I have zero knowledge of or control over which is exactly what you are trying to do along with the other liberal morons screaming for disarming the police.

There were officers present when the before mentioned woman was slammed face first into the concrete, none of them said a thing. They are all culpable because the officer that did that knew that would be the response of his actions... no response at all.

How do you know that? Were you there? Were you present when they gave their statements or spoke to their supervisors about what happened? If, in fact they did not say anything (I would agree with you that they are culpable) what bearing does that have on me or anyone else who was not there?

 

[phylodog]

See his "900 officers on duty and my poor blind eye" comment. He damn well knows I wasn't referring to him with ANY of the before mentioned incidents.. especially since not a one of them occurred in Indiana. that's the blue line mentality reareing it's head. None of this has ever been in reference to him, but yet he views it as a personal attack. See why nothing ever changes?

Negative ghost rider. It has nothing to do with your perceived "blue line mentality". I'm refusing to accept your blame for the actions of others simply because I share their profession. It seems you have a very difficult time grasping this concept but unfortunately I don't know how else to put it.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Baltimore Mayor announces partnership with DOJ to reform Police. Just now.

I have said for a couple years this is reminding me of the 60's and early 70's. I was young but I was a mil spec son of a career soldier and combat vet living in civilian communities including LA. People were reacting to and attacking all symbols of power, authority, and government, even their houses, spouses and children.

Now you see the same tactics being used by Federal govt against state and local level power, especially through the network of willing toadies developed by the neighborhood organizers. Inept and corrupt mayors are willing accomplices to this kind of power grab. There will always be bad people in every aspect of society. Focusing on cops does not change the fact that there are many people who make bad choices and then are not held responsible. The same people continually come in contact with law enforcement through bad choices. It is their "career choice" that puts them in cuffs. Then we attack cops who are the tip of the spear keeping this crap in check? Yeah, that works. It is a distraction. If cops were trained to kill, there would have already been coups in every city over 25,000 people.

Cops may suffer from burn out and stress but that is because in their hearts they know they are witnessing the begin of the collapse of most major cities.

Doubtful. The vast majority of officers take their jobs seriously. Insurrection against local, elected, govt isn't something we'd do