Vaccinations. Yes or no ?

[findingZzero]

I agree! Everyone should have the right to die or transmit some strange, entirely preventable disease.I could make this bigger, but I thought it might be irritating...

 

[DadOfFour]

I agree! Everyone should have the right to die or transmit some strange, entirely preventable disease.I could make this bigger, but I thought it might be irritating...

How can I transmit it to you IF YOUR VACCINE WORKS AS ADVERTISED???????? Just thought I'd be big and annoying too

 

[rambone]

I agree! Everyone should have the right to die or transmit some strange, entirely preventable disease.

Who owns your body?

 

[Darral27]

Vaccinations are supposed to be voluntary however with children it can get much more complicated than that. When the swine flu thing was going around I was really pressured to get the shot for one of my children. I mean REALLY pressured. I stood fast and refused to let him get it. It can be very difficult for parents to decide these days though.

 

[eldirector]

Hate to be the voice of reason, again.....

Everyone does realize that the human immune system is not infallible, right? No vaccine is capable of providing 100% immunity in 100% of the population. It simply does not work that way.

If you are working under the assumption that ANY vaccine is 100% effective in all individuals, then I suggest you take a break from this conversation, read up a bit on antibodies, antigens, and how vaccines work. Heck, even Wikipedia is a decent source in this case.

Now, if you want to talk about the OTHER additives in SOME vaccines, I'm listening. That is a completely different topic than effectiveness, though.

 

[Misplaced Yankee]

There is no number 5? However, I've seen/read that page in the past. How exactly does me not vaccinating my children endanger society? Short answer, it doesn't....at least, not as long as the stuff you've stuck in your kids actually does what it says it does.....

Number five. Verbatim.

MISCONCEPTION #5. Vaccine-preventable diseases have been virtually eliminated from the United States, so there is no need for my child to be vaccinated.

It's true that vaccination has enabled us to reduce most vaccine-preventable diseases to very low levels in the United States. However, some of them are still quite prevalent - even epidemic - in other parts of the world. Travelers can unknowingly bring these diseases into the United States, and if we were not protected by vaccinations these diseases could quickly spread throughout the population, causing epidemics here. At the same time, the relatively few cases we currently have in the U.S. could very quickly become tens or hundreds of thousands of cases without the protection we get from vaccines.
We should still be vaccinated, then, for two reasons. The first is to protect ourselves. Even if we think our chances of getting any of these diseases are small, the diseases still exist and can still infect anyone who is not protected. Travelers are especially vulnerable. A few years ago a 63 year old U.S. traveler to Haiti caught diphtheria and died -he had never been vaccinated. In 2005 and 2006, outbreaks of measles and mumps occurred in several states within the U.S. The measles outbreak began in a group of travelers (who had not been vaccinated) upon their return from a trip to Romania where they had been exposed to measles.
The second reason to get vaccinated is to protect those around us. A small number of persons cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons such as a severe allergy to vaccine components, and a small percentage simply do not respond to vaccines. These persons are susceptible to disease, and their only hope of protection is that people around them have been successfully vaccinated and cannot pass disease along to them. A successful vaccination program, like a successful society, depends on the cooperation of every individual to ensure the good for all. We would think it irresponsible of a driver to ignore all traffic regulations on the presumption that other drivers will watch out for him or her. In the same way, we shouldn't rely on people around us to stop the spread of disease if we ourselves can be vaccinated. We must all do what we can.



You know that little bar on the right? It scrolls down. Or you can hit CTRL+F and type "Misconception #5". I've read all that you guys have posted as the Anti's, and you can't read any of the counter-points?



I understand, it's an emotional issue. You can't argue emotions. Your gut tells you it's wrong. But it's something that everyone has to get by. If you wanted to leave rotting, dead animals lying around your property, and lived in the middle of nowhere, go for it. If you were living around people, you'd have to stop based on public health. That's how major vaccines are. They're for everyone else's health.


You own your body, you own your property, you own your land. But when your actions with your items cause others risk you lose your place in society. It's basic human nature. Not communism, you're stepping on others. Read the article.

 

[DadOfFour]

Number five. Verbatim.

MISCONCEPTION #5. Vaccine-preventable diseases have been virtually eliminated from the United States, so there is no need for my child to be vaccinated.

It's true that vaccination has enabled us to reduce most vaccine-preventable diseases to very low levels in the United States. However, some of them are still quite prevalent - even epidemic - in other parts of the world. Travelers can unknowingly bring these diseases into the United States, and if we were not protected by vaccinations these diseases could quickly spread throughout the population, causing epidemics here. At the same time, the relatively few cases we currently have in the U.S. could very quickly become tens or hundreds of thousands of cases without the protection we get from vaccines.
We should still be vaccinated, then, for two reasons. The first is to protect ourselves. Even if we think our chances of getting any of these diseases are small, the diseases still exist and can still infect anyone who is not protected. Travelers are especially vulnerable. A few years ago a 63 year old U.S. traveler to Haiti caught diphtheria and died -he had never been vaccinated. In 2005 and 2006, outbreaks of measles and mumps occurred in several states within the U.S. The measles outbreak began in a group of travelers (who had not been vaccinated) upon their return from a trip to Romania where they had been exposed to measles.
The second reason to get vaccinated is to protect those around us. A small number of persons cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons such as a severe allergy to vaccine components, and a small percentage simply do not respond to vaccines. These persons are susceptible to disease, and their only hope of protection is that people around them have been successfully vaccinated and cannot pass disease along to them. A successful vaccination program, like a successful society, depends on the cooperation of every individual to ensure the good for all. We would think it irresponsible of a driver to ignore all traffic regulations on the presumption that other drivers will watch out for him or her. In the same way, we shouldn't rely on people around us to stop the spread of disease if we ourselves can be vaccinated. We must all do what we can.



You know that little bar on the right? It scrolls down. Or you can hit CTRL+F and type "Misconception #5". I've read all that you guys have posted as the Anti's, and you can't read any of the counter-points?



I understand, it's an emotional issue. You can't argue emotions. Your gut tells you it's wrong. But it's something that everyone has to get by. If you wanted to leave rotting, dead animals lying around your property, and lived in the middle of nowhere, go for it. If you were living around people, you'd have to stop based on public health. That's how major vaccines are. They're for everyone else's health.


You own your body, you own your property, you own your land. But when your actions with your items cause others risk you lose your place in society. It's basic human nature. Not communism, you're stepping on others. Read the article.

First off, nowhere does that say that non vaccinated people are a risk to vaccinated people, in fact it says just the opposite, it says that vaccinated people help protect the un vaccinated so your argument doesn't follow your source.

Second off: Show me the CONSTITUTIONAL Authority for mandating vaccines and/or "remove you from society" to use your words. BTW, if you can't find said CONSTITUTIONAL Authority your argument is DOA, sorry.

 

[rambone]

You own your body, you own your property, you own your land. But...

A wise man once said, "Everything that comes before the word 'but' is a lie."

But when your actions with your items cause others risk you lose your place in society. It's basic human nature. Not communism, you're stepping on others.

Please tell us more about the people you plan to "remove from society." Will they be quarantined in unvaccinated ghettos? Prisons? Gas chambers?

 

[Misplaced Yankee]

First off, nowhere does that say that non vaccinated people are a risk to vaccinated people, in fact it says just the opposite, it says that vaccinated people help protect the un vaccinated so your argument doesn't follow your source.

Second off: Show me the CONSTITUTIONAL Authority for mandating vaccines and/or "remove you from society" to use your words. BTW, if you can't find said CONSTITUTIONAL Authority your argument is DOA, sorry.

Yep, you've got it. Constitution doesn't state anything against someone shooting up your house and family either. It doesn't say you can't start fire to public buildings. But these things are part of public contract. You're part of a society, as long as you help protect the group. Basic nature. Basically, once again, you're saying f' you, got mine. All of your proof is bogus. Actually read it.

You have multiple people saying you're wrong. But I guess you'll scream the longest and think you're right. It's kind of sad actually. Good luck. Rambone, you're just a dick or a troll. It's cool. But anytime you go Hitler you're being one or the other. Intelligent discussions can't exist after that point. But dad of four I feel bad for, you can't seem to grasp general well being. It's not communism, it's a temporary discomfort for the lack of an illness. I guess if your kids catch something nasty it's on you, but I feel for anyone else who gets sick due to opinions like yours.

 

[rambone]

Rambone, you're just a dick or a troll. It's cool. But anytime you go Hitler you're being one or the other. Intelligent discussions can't exist after that point.

You said twice that you want to remove me from society. Pretty strong words. I think its a fair question to ask WTF you are talking about.

Keep the ovens warm for me bro.

 

[hooky]

When your beliefs endanger society in general, we have the right to remove you from society.

That statement has been uttered by some very evil men in this world. It's nice to know where you stand.

 

[DadOfFour]

Yep, you've got it. Constitution doesn't state anything against someone shooting up your house and family either. It doesn't say you can't start fire to public buildings. But these things are part of public contract. You're part of a society, as long as you help protect the group. Basic nature. Basically, once again, you're saying f' you, got mine.

We're talking about the government forcing medicine on you against your will, not about destroying personal property person to person.

All of your proof is bogus. Actually read it.

What "proof" exactly have I showed you that it's bogus? Did I ever say, You shouldn't vaccinate and here's why? No I've specifically said you have the right to vaccinate, and I have the right not to. You on the other hand are saying you have the right to force your values/beliefs on me but you've yet to back it up with any legal authority.

You have multiple people saying you're wrong. But I guess you'll scream the longest and think you're right.

And yet, nobody has yet been able to tell me where the gov't gets the authority to force vaccinations on anyone.

But dad of four I feel bad for, you can't seem to grasp general well being. It's not communism, it's a temporary discomfort for the lack of an illness. I guess if your kids catch something nasty it's on you, but I feel for anyone else who gets sick due to opinions like yours.

Oh PLEASE tell me you're trying to say it's the General Welfare Clause that gives gov't the power to mandate vaccinations, cause it'll take me all of 2 seconds to tear that argument to shreds.
You know what's funny, "general well being" is one of the argument the anti gun folks use, it doesn't work well for them either.

I'm not trying to force anything on anyone, you however seem to think you have the power/right to force what you believe to be right on me.....

 

[findingZzero]

How can I transmit it to you IF YOUR VACCINE WORKS AS ADVERTISED???????? Just thought I'd be big and annoying too [/QUOTE]

Not worried about myself getting infected just your other non-vaccinated children/ neighbors. Does that make me a nanny liberal pinko tree hugging nancy-boy? NTTAWWT*

*notthattheresanythingwrongwiththat
p.s. i woulda used diff colors but I can't find them..lucky you....

 

[hooky]

Not worried about myself getting infected just your other non-vaccinated children/ neighbors. Does that make me a nanny liberal pinko tree hugging nancy-boy? NTTAWWT*

*notthattheresanythingwrongwiththat
p.s. i woulda used diff colors but I can't find them..lucky you....

You're actually making the argument that I should be vaccinated so the others who have chosen not to vaccinate are safer? If you're really concerned, then just come out and say you think the government should be able to control what medical treatments you must have and those which you can't have.

 

[level.eleven]

Much like another active thread, the opposition relies on the audience having a cartoon interpretation of how the system functions.

 

[Misplaced Yankee]

You said twice that you want to remove me from society. Pretty strong words. I think its a fair question to ask WTF you are talking about.

Keep the ovens warm for me bro.

I'm just saying it makes sense to compare a choice to endanger yourself and others having social consequences to being born from a certain genetic heritage and murdered for it. You stay classy Ram.

You have the choice, yes, but there's consequences for your decision. You don't get vaccinated, people have the choice to not be around you. If someone had a highly infectious airborne disease, would you want them in class with your kids? How would you like to work with them? I bet at the very least you'd demand a mask. Now how would you feel if they said it was because they chose not to get cured. The cure has a one in a million chance of making them worse. Still, you'd be confused, right? That's how I view your arguments. I respect your decision, go right ahead, rock on. But if you don't read the counter information, and don't inform yourself any further, you'll get no sympathy from me if your kids can't go to school with mine.

You made your choice to not help public safety. You made your choice, society in large can make theirs to not allow you to hang out with them. Similar if you stop bathing.

 

[Lex Concord]

Yes, going to med school does enable them to tell you what is best for your kids' health.

It amazes me how many people act like they know more about medicine than doctors. I would assume that these are the same people that go to the barber and correct their cutting technique or go to the mechanic and explain to them how they are doing it wrong..

And it amazes me how many people look upon doctors (esp. many MDs themselves) as gods because of that simple degree...a C student still gets the MD.

Actually we're the same people who have been harmed by doctors not so knowledgeable as you would presume, or have avoided harm by seeking a second opinion.

I can't tell you how many MDs and other medical professionals we have educated during our trip down the joys of chronic issues just based on a little research on our own.

They studied in med school...enough to pass med school...then they studied at least enough to pass the boards...that's all the license guarantees...trust of something beyond that must be earned.

Many of them do continually read, especially in areas of specialty, but no person knows it all; to think anyone could is asinine, as is to blindly trust based on a piece of vellum tacked up on the wall.

 

[findingZzero]

Who owns your body?

I guess we give up some rights as individuals when we agree to live in a society. You agree not to land your jet plane on my front lawn. I won't target practice with my silkworm missile near your property line. We try to live somewhere between anarchy and total control. Today I was told I could be fined $150 for not having a life jacket on my kayak. I didn't have to wear it, and a flotation cushion wasn't acceptable. Now that's a nanny state. Relax, we know what's good for you ......

 

[DadOfFour]

How can I transmit it to you IF YOUR VACCINE WORKS AS ADVERTISED???????? Just thought I'd be big and annoying too

Not worried about myself getting infected just your other non-vaccinated children/ neighbors. Does that make me a nanny liberal pinko tree hugging nancy-boy? NTTAWWT*

*notthattheresanythingwrongwiththat
p.s. i woulda used diff colors but I can't find them..lucky you....[/QUOTE]

If we choose not to get vaccinated then obviously we know there is a potential risk, but, that's our choice to make, and doesn't affect you in any way shape or form.

 

[DadOfFour]

I'm just saying it makes sense to compare a choice to endanger yourself and others having social consequences to being born from a certain genetic heritage and murdered for it. You stay classy Ram.

You have the choice, yes, but there's consequences for your decision. You don't get vaccinated, people have the choice to not be around you. If someone had a highly infectious airborne disease, would you want them in class with your kids? How would you like to work with them? I bet at the very least you'd demand a mask. Now how would you feel if they said it was because they chose not to get cured. The cure has a one in a million chance of making them worse. Still, you'd be confused, right? That's how I view your arguments. I respect your decision, go right ahead, rock on. But if you don't read the counter information, and don't inform yourself any further, you'll get no sympathy from me if your kids can't go to school with mine.

You made your choice to not help public safety. You made your choice, society in large can make theirs to not allow you to hang out with them. Similar if you stop bathing.

Ahhh so because I exercise my freedom you then get to revoke my freedoms that's a very interesting theory. Thankfully 200+ years of statutory law and thousands of years of common law practice disagree with you.

Oh, and I've read so much on this you have no idea. My ex wife and I literally spent months and months researching this before we made our decision. I don't make decisions regarding my childrens' health and well-being lightly nor without researching everything I can get my hands on.