Vaccinations. Yes or no ?

[Pocketman]

Excellent input. But may I add comparing George Washington to our current politicians and presidents is like comparing angels to piles of fecal matter.

My post was about "medicine" not politicians. However, since you brought it up, Washington had more than his share of antagonists.

 

[Carmelbythecorn]

In reading these posts, I think that American society has a core belief that we can overcome nature through our actions. Last time I checked, the mortality rate in this country was hovering right around the 100% mark. Each of us eventually dies. Many of us will die in a manner in which we would not choose for ourselves. We need to get over it and live life to the fullest while we can.

We debate the vaccine topic and it's intellectually interesting. Other places are debating assisted suicide and attempting to make their points on how citizens ought to be able to do that (not this site and not hijacking the thread, just making a point).

Life is dangerous. We make choices in how we live our lives. Some are good, some not so good. We age, our bodies break down and eventually we will pass to the next life/dimension (or become plant food, depending on your world view).

Should we, in trying to live our lives to the fullest, force people who don't believe like we do to go against their beliefs or what they decide for themselves or their family?

A lot of people will say "but what about the kids?" Think how resilient children are and thankfully so. How much have you overcome in your life from a less-than-perfect childhood? For me, some of the best lessons I've learned are because of those experiences.

We need to stop trying to create Utopia / Nirvana / Heaven on earth and life a life of liberty and allow others to do the same.

 

[XDdreams]

It appears like you were making the case that Washington used vaccination to win the war and found the nation, less information was provided about medicine more information was provided about Washington and successful vaccination contributing to his overall success. That is why I came to the conclusion I did.

Although somewhat experimental at the time, Washington successfully inoculated his troops against smallpox which may have been a greater threat than the British. It can therefore be argued that this action saved the Continental Army and therefore contributed to the founding of our nation.

 

[Pocketman]

It appears like you were making the case that Washington used vaccination to win the war and found the nation, less information was provided about medicine more information was provided about Washington and successful vaccination contributing to his overall success. That is why I came to the conclusion I did.

OK
Was just trying to make the point that vaccinations have a practical purpose.

 

[XDdreams]

I agree with you, in some cases they are needed. In some they aren't. There are positives and negatives to it.

But I do understand where you are coming from.

OK
Was just trying to make the point that vaccinations have a practical purpose.

 

[DadOfFour]

My ex wife and I did allot of research, talked with the kids' pediatrician, read everything we could get our hands on, and then made the decision not to vaccinate our kids. We made this decision about 2 years ago when our youngest was almost 3. Everyone had all their shots up until that point. She has another child who's about 1 (I think) now who's never had ANY vaccinations. Our kids are healthy and have suffered no ill effects from not being vaccinated. It really is a personal decision, there's benefits and risks either way. Weigh the benefits, weigh the risks, make your decision and go with it. When the school asks for vaccination records we just submit a letter stating that vaccination violates our personal religious preferences, as allowed by State statute.

 

[cburnworth]

I guess people don't remember lovely things like Polio since vaccines pretty well wiped them out.

but Polio wasn't a problem until we cleaned up the country and started pouring tons of chemicals into the water.

Why are cases of autism climbing? No one can say for sure it is vaccines, but it is sure has something to do with our changing environment & all the crap in our food.

 

[ATOMonkey]

A lot of disease prevention does have more to do with sanitation than anything else.

 

[J_Wales]

In reading these posts, I think that American society has a core belief that we can overcome nature through our actions. Last time I checked, the mortality rate in this country was hovering right around the 100% mark. Each of us eventually dies. Many of us will die in a manner in which we would not choose for ourselves. We need to get over it and live life to the fullest while we can.

We debate the vaccine topic and it's intellectually interesting. Other places are debating assisted suicide and attempting to make their points on how citizens ought to be able to do that (not this site and not hijacking the thread, just making a point).

Life is dangerous. We make choices in how we live our lives. Some are good, some not so good. We age, our bodies break down and eventually we will pass to the next life/dimension (or become plant food, depending on your world view).

Should we, in trying to live our lives to the fullest, force people who don't believe like we do to go against their beliefs or what they decide for themselves or their family?

A lot of people will say "but what about the kids?" Think how resilient children are and thankfully so. How much have you overcome in your life from a less-than-perfect childhood? For me, some of the best lessons I've learned are because of those experiences.

We need to stop trying to create Utopia / Nirvana / Heaven on earth and life a life of liberty and allow others to do the same.

Wow. You sound like a hate filled isolationist.

 

[Carmelbythecorn]

Wow. You sound like a hate filled isolationist.

 

[88GT]

Disclaimer: I stopped reading about 50 posts in seeing that nothing new (or correct) has been introduced into this conversation since the last time we had it.

I pretty much stick to Wikipedia and webmd for all of my information regarding vaccinations.

Amateur!!! That's not research. That's meta-research. If you can't get your hands on the original studies and not some reworked, warmed over version of them, you've got nothing.

Parents who would withhold all vaccines from their children should surely have their children taken away, if only to be vaccinated and promptly returned.

Uh, no.

Because then it's people who smoke, people who drink, people who own guns. You need to perfect your argument a bit.

How about you do ALL the vaccines you want and let me make the decision about which ones are best for me and mine?

Fine. How about those of you who so adamantly refuse to vax STHU and quit trying to make the rest of society complicit in your choice? Just make it and go on with life. /quasi-sarcasm

The anti-vax crowd is just as bad, if not worse, than the vax crowd.

And for the umpteenth time, none of you know what you're talking about if you think "vax" is an adequate word to describe what it injected into the body. The "vax" is a cocktail. Sometimes/mostly of more than one bug, and always (with the rarest of exception that probably don't even account for 0.01% of the total vaxes administered) with additives that make mass production financially feasible. It is NOT the bugs that cause adverse reactions. It is the additives. So if you want to get on your righteous high horse and start preaching about how bad things are, GET IT RIGHT!!!!!

 

[88GT]

but Polio wasn't a problem until we cleaned up the country and started pouring tons of chemicals into the water.

Polio cases peaked in '52. The Salk vaccine is directly correlated to a dramatic downward trend in cases from its introduction in '55 onward. The last naturally occurring case in the U.S. was in '79. I don't think your information is accurate.

Why are cases of autism climbing? No one can say for sure it is vaccines, but it is sure has something to do with our changing environment & all the crap in our food.

Mostly because every deviation from human "norm" now has a diagnostic label put on it. Kinda like there are very few CODs listed as "natural causes" anymore.

Aside from that, autism is not an accurate diagnosis because it doesn't describe a disease, it describes a set of symptoms. My personal opinion is that what we label as autism has multiple causes. And until the causes are defined and delineated, it is academically dishonest to lump ALL autism cases together without the proper qualification of the inadequacies of the data.

Finally, I think it's a convenient diagnosis because it's impossible to disprove.

What I find incredibly interesting is that the very doctors that are completely untrustworthy in peddling their vaccinations are suddenly singing the gospel when it comes to medical information about diseases. So which is it? Are doctors/researchers biased and corrupt or not? And don't ask me to believe that only those for your pet cause are trustworthy.

 

[rambone]

A lot of disease prevention does have more to do with sanitation than anything else.

Kirk Freeman will be along shortly to ridicule that statement.

The anti-vax crowd is just as bad, if not worse, than the vax crowd.

We're barely holding on by threads in some states to maintain our right to not vaccinate. We are constantly on the defensive from billion dollar propaganda campaigns and people advocating forced vaccinations.

That's fine if you think the people are annoying. But realize that the anti-vaccine crowd has to fight a thousand times harder and be way more vocal to even stand a chance against the tentacles of Big Pharma and their government cronies.

 

[steveh_131]

Mostly because every deviation from human "norm" now has a diagnostic label put on it. Kinda like there are very few CODs listed as "natural causes" anymore.

Aside from that, autism is not an accurate diagnosis because it doesn't describe a disease, it describes a set of symptoms. My personal opinion is that what we label as autism has multiple causes. And until the causes are defined and delineated, it is academically dishonest to lump ALL autism cases together without the proper qualification of the inadequacies of the data.

I think you're right about this. Autism is not a proper diagnosis, in my opinion. More and more parents are asking these questions, and doctors do not have a real answer to any of them.

Q: "Why does my son behave this way?"
A: "I think he is autistic."
Q: "How can you verify this diagnosis?"
A: "I can't."
Q: "What causes it?"
A: "I haven't the slightest idea."
Q: "Could it have something to do with the vaccination that you gave him immediately before the symptoms started appearing?"
A: "Absolutely not."
Q: "I noticed certain foods seem to worsen these behaviors. Would you order a test for food sensitivities?"
A: "Food has no effect on a child's behavior."

Thanks a lot, doc. You have no idea what's wrong with him. You have no idea what causes it. The only thing you know for certain is that the vaccine you pushed on him couldn't have caused it.

Oh, and you know for certain that food has no effect on a child's behavior (SERIOUSLY!?)

Please, pardon my distrust of pediatricians. Clearly they know what is best for my child.

 

[rambone]

 

[eldirector]

I assume you followed that up with:

"Thanks for the information. Could you please have your office fax my child's records over to <insert new pediatrician's name here> office? We are getting another opinion. Thanks."

I've had bad doctors, and I've had good ones. The bad ones got fired, and the good ones are still on my list.

Our current pediatrician sent home some info on another vaccine the other day. We asked her about it, and she said it is recommended if you fit certain conditions (I don't recall them off-hand). I asked if SHE thought my girl fit any of those conditions, and she said "No, not really. I can give you more info, and it is totally your call." I did some research, and we passed on this one.

It sounds like we are blending several topics together here: distrust of doctors, distrust of vaccines, distrust of medicine in general, and our government forcing medical decisions on us. Pretty broad topics!

 

[hooky]

Fine. How about those of you who so adamantly refuse to vax STHU and quit trying to make the rest of society complicit in your choice? Just make it and go on with life. /quasi-sarcasm

The anti-vax crowd is just as bad, if not worse, than the vax crowd.

And for the umpteenth time, none of you know what you're talking about if you think "vax" is an adequate word to describe what it injected into the body. The "vax" is a cocktail. Sometimes/mostly of more than one bug, and always (with the rarest of exception that probably don't even account for 0.01% of the total vaxes administered) with additives that make mass production financially feasible. It is NOT the bugs that cause adverse reactions. It is the additives. So if you want to get on your righteous high horse and start preaching about how bad things are, GET IT RIGHT!!!!!

I just get tired of being called a moonbat because after an adverse reaction incident, I decided to stop putting that crap into the bodies of my kids for every little thing that might make them ill and others uncomfortable.

There is a place for vaccinations (Polio, smallpox, etc...) but I don't feel they're needed for things like chicken pox and the flu if you have a healthy immune system. And I certainly don't think the arguments that they should be mandatory are valid, for the same reasons you spell out. What's next?

I'm not telling anyone not to vaccinate their kids. That's none of my business. That should work both ways.

I've tried to stay out of the last few vax threads. I should have tried harder to stay out of this one.

 

[singlestacksig]

i believe vaccination serves a necessary good for mankind. I will fight to preserve an individuals right to refuse vaccination, but i will also support & vote for banning an un vaccinated person from schools, collages, aircraft, international travel and so on..

the current delivery system for vaccinations may have some problems.. let's work to fix those.. but the idea of vaccinations works.. or standard of living would be much worse if we did not do it..

 

[ATOMonkey]

I think you're right about this. Autism is not a proper diagnosis, in my opinion. More and more parents are asking these questions, and doctors do not have a real answer to any of them.

Q: "Why does my son behave this way?"
A: "I think he is autistic."
Q: "How can you verify this diagnosis?"
A: "I can't."
Q: "What causes it?"
A: "I haven't the slightest idea."
Q: "Could it have something to do with the vaccination that you gave him immediately before the symptoms started appearing?"
A: "Absolutely not."
Q: "I noticed certain foods seem to worsen these behaviors. Would you order a test for food sensitivities?"
A: "Food has no effect on a child's behavior."

Thanks a lot, doc. You have no idea what's wrong with him. You have no idea what causes it. The only thing you know for certain is that the vaccine you pushed on him couldn't have caused it.

Oh, and you know for certain that food has no effect on a child's behavior (SERIOUSLY!?)

Please, pardon my distrust of pediatricians. Clearly they know what is best for my child.

You forgot...

Q: So what can we do about it?
A: I've got lots of lovely ADHD drugs I can prescribe!

 

[ATOMonkey]

Polio cases peaked in '52. The Salk vaccine is directly correlated to a dramatic downward trend in cases from its introduction in '55 onward. The last naturally occurring case in the U.S. was in '79. I don't think your information is accurate.

I'm sure the Salk vaccine put a big dent in Polio, but so did soap.

Polio is/was primarily transmitted by ingesting fecal matter.

In the '40s-'50s indoor plumbing became more common as did regular bathing, washing your hands, etc.

I believe both worked in parallel to beat back the disease.