Two-Thirds of Americans Favor Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants

[BehindBlueI's]

I agree that it's necessary to secure the fence and protect it. And that requires armed people. But that's a bit different from what some people were describing. That scenario seemed more like guys sitting in towers sniping away at would be illegal immigrants.

The only person I've seen describing such a thing has been Fargo so that he can argue against it. The closest thing I see in the thread to it being actually suggested was the suggestion that signs be put up that if you cross the border armed lethal force will be used to stop you. Maybe I misread it, but that seems to me to be saying if you're armed while crossing the border, you're fair game. I'm still waiting for his idea of a beefed up border that does not, at some point, rely on the ability to use force when necessary, which in some circumstances may mean lethal force.

 

[jamil]

The only person I've seen describing such a thing has been Fargo so that he can argue against it. The closest thing I see in the thread to it being actually suggested was the suggestion that signs be put up that if you cross the border armed lethal force will be used to stop you. Maybe I misread it, but that seems to me to be saying if you're armed while crossing the border, you're fair game. I'm still waiting for his idea of a beefed up border that does not, at some point, rely on the ability to use force when necessary, which in some circumstances may mean lethal force.

I didn't think that was his point. Maybe there's a little straw being heaped on both sides.

 

[yepthatsme]

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right about the perfect storm in which the Republicans get cheap labor and the Democrats get potential future voters. Everyone in a position to fix the problem has a motive to see that it does NOT get fixed.

I would also add that I believe that both parties see illegals as the perfect solution to the social security and medicare problem. Most can't see the long term effects of illegal immigration. They see, for the short term, there may be an influx of tax dollars to help fund social security and medicare. They do not understand that there are a finite amount of jobs and that workers already outnumber the available jobs.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I didn't think that was his point. Maybe there's a little straw being heaped on both sides.

Ah, I probably just misread this:

Do you think that US military personnel would be fine with plinking off folks they know to be mostly women, children and day laborers?

and then this:

Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

Interesting that shooting seems to be the only way folks think we can enforce a secure border.

Neither I nor Poptab suggested this, other posters did.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

What are the ROEs at the DMZ?

General Pershing was not operating in a post Tennessee v. Garner environment and his was a military expedition into a foreign nation. The 14th amendment and fourth amendment do not distinguish based on citizenship. There is a ton of caselaw to that effect. If you think the current SCOTUS would go for this, methinks you are not very familiar with its recent rulings.

Still curious if you would drop the hammer on these people?

I missed this the first time around.

No, it was not. A military expedition was PART of it, however the US Army was stationed along the border to protect against incursions for years prior to the trek into Mexico for Ol' Poncho.

The ROE of the DMZ are largely irrelevant because the obstacle itself does most of the work.

Under what authority does the US Coast Guard use lethal force to stop boats? Warning shots, then shots to disable the boat seems to be working just fine.

 

[SkullDaddy.45]

Looks like Rubio's original plan actually took the will of the people into consideration. It's pretty certain that Trump didn't. And this has been the outlook of the people in this country for the best part of the last decade. Candidates had better be paying attention.



Two-Thirds of Americans Favor Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants - Hit & Run : Reason.com

I guess this explains why Mr. Trumps poll numbers keep climbing every time he states that he's sending them all back!

 

[j706]

I am not one of the two thirds. I say ship every single one of them back that we can find. It really ticks me off when people think they have a right to come here from their own jacked up country's. I really have no use whatsoever for any illegal immigrant. Want to come live here? Go through the precess.

BTW- I do not believe the pole for a nanosecond.

 

[17 squirrel]

I just don't see how it would be that hard. Fences just like on some of the Military bases, a double row of 16' chain link fence about 50' apart and signs on the first fence in English & spanish in red ,white and blue.
" If you climb this fence armed lethal force will be used "
It's simple.. We guard many important installations this way all over this country. Our border should be no different. Our Country is the most important installation of all.

This is what I posted. It's simple to me, we guard our secure installations with signs that state " lethal force will be used if you try climb this fence "
And simply put, if you attempt to climb this fence , you will be shot dead.
We will shoot our own citizens for climbing a secure fence, we should shoot illegals climbing the secure fence entering this country.

So build the fence, post the signs in both English & spanish. And if you choose to climb over or under the first fence, you will be shot dead before you touch the second fence.
Many,many borders around the world are guarded with men and firearms.
Our border should be no different than any secure U S base / installation with how it is kept secure. Our borders should be the most secure door that we protect. There should be not one person in this country that is not a citizen that we do not know who it is and where they work and live. Not one.
JMHO,, squirrel

 

[Fargo]

This is what I posted. It's simple to me, we guard our secure installations with signs that state " lethal force will be used if you try climb this fence "
And simply put, if you attempt to climb this fence , you will be shot dead.
We will shoot our own citizens for climbing a secure fence, we should shoot illegals climbing the secure fence entering this country.

So build the fence, post the signs in both English & spanish. And if you choose to climb over or under the first fence, you will be shot dead before you touch the second fence.
Many,many borders around the world are guarded with men and firearms.
Our border should be no different than any secure U S base / installation with how it is kept secure. Our borders should be the most secure door that we protect. There should be not one person in this country that is not a citizen that we do not know who it is and where they work and live. Not one.
JMHO,, squirrel

LOL you just boner droned BBIs straw man argument!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

LOL you just boner droned BBIs straw man argument!

Ok. Now let's see what your plan to secure the border given the confines you've placed.

 

[BugI02]

This is what I posted. It's simple to me, we guard our secure installations with signs that state " lethal force will be used if you try climb this fence "
And simply put, if you attempt to climb this fence , you will be shot dead.
We will shoot our own citizens for climbing a secure fence, we should shoot illegals climbing the secure fence entering this country.

So build the fence, post the signs in both English & spanish. And if you choose to climb over or under the first fence, you will be shot dead before you touch the second fence.
Many,many borders around the world are guarded with men and firearms.
Our border should be no different than any secure U S base / installation with how it is kept secure. Our borders should be the most secure door that we protect. There should be not one person in this country that is not a citizen that we do not know who it is and where they work and live. Not one.
JMHO,, squirrel

You will have set up the perfect environment within which corrupt officials can profit greatly from the smuggling of illegals, perhaps with the collusionof big business. I still think you need to really levy some crushing fines for the employment of illegals and have watchers watching the watchers (ICE)

 

[17 squirrel]

You will have set up the perfect environment within which corrupt officials can profit greatly from the smuggling of illegals, perhaps with the collusionof big business. I still think you need to really levy some crushing fines for the employment of illegals and have watchers watching the watchers (ICE)

That's just my thoughts on a fence, I would not be kind to anyone who knowingly hires a illegal Alien..I would not care if its a housekeeper / nanny / small or a large businesses. The fines would really hurt. Nor would I be kind to anyone caught here that's not supposed to be here.
If a stupid welder as myself can see the difference between a real SS Card and a Green card, and one printed out with a bubble jet. Anybody can..

You say I would have set up the perfect environment within which corrupt officials can profit greatly from the smuggling of illegals ?

My answer wod simply be, I would make Frank Serpico a offer big enough that he would gladly come out of retirement..I would make him The Border Control Master... He will stand tall and clean sweep up the problem children.

 

[Fargo]

Ok. Now let's see what your plan to secure the border given the confines you've placed.

[STRIKE]I thought I posted it back in post 144?[/STRIKE] Nevermind, misread your question. Give me a minute.

 

[Fargo]

Ok. Now let's see what your plan to secure the border given the confines you've placed.

My thoughts, for what they are worth are:

I grew up down by the border and I know you spent time there as well so we both know at least a little bit about what it is like. A 2000 mile border is going to be very difficult to totally secure against a determined group so rather than trying to build a fortified wall, you need to make it no longer cost effective to crash it. That is why I don't think you can accomplish this via a wall alone; you need to have a viable, accessible guest worker program to re-route your basically decent folks out of the border crashing channels and into the tax base. We did this via the Bracero program back in the day and there is no reason we can't again.

With that valve taking some of the pressure off the border, you can then focus on fencing/fortifying your vulnerabilities, as we already have to an extent, and concentrating your patrols. I have no issue with the National Guard helping on doing this although I am hesitant about deploying the regular army on this, if only because I really don't want our soldiers/marines getting confused about whether they are police or not.

They all absolutely should be armed, with the same rules on use of force as any other law enforcement.

If you can take enough pressure off the border via other means, you also need to look at amending the current federal laws as far as sneaking across the border. If memory serves, it is currently generally a misdemeanor which is NEVER prosecuted criminally. You need to put some teeth into the criminal penalties, especially for Coyotes, although you absolutely will run into funding issues here which I can't say I know the answer to.

You can use the river/desert to your advantage as well, reducing the amount of area you have to fence.

That said, you are never going to be able to close it entirely; about 5000 made it across the Berlin Wall with about 150 getting shot. That was a less than 100 mile border. You need to relieve the pressure on it, get the decent people out of the Coyote's hands and into legitimate channels, and harshen up on those who won't.

You haven't built a fence anyone can drive through that you can't afford to man. You aren't shooting people for an offense which is currently a misdemeanor. Lastly, you now have cheap legal labor as a part of your tax base rather than all under the table.

That's my .02. I'm not saying I have all the answers or anything like that, but that is where I would start.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

On my phone, but mostly agree. I disagree about use of active military. It has been done with success. I was active duty when deployed down there for JTF6.

 

[Fargo]

On my phone, but mostly agree. I disagree about use of active military. It has been done with success. I was active duty when deployed down there for JTF6.

It's not that I don't think they could do it, they absolutely could. I just prefer they focus on honing their ass kicking skills rather than taking on a policing type mindset. Plus, there might be a posse commitatus issue although I'm not certain of that.

Edit: The more I think about this, the more I think BBI may have a point. If we are going to continue to largely use our military as a long term army of occupation, this sort of exercise probably would be right on point.

Also, I would like to see enhancements for serious/violent crimes based upon being in the country illegally. IMO The focus shouldn't be on deporting those people because it is far too easy to just come back. The focus should be on the caging them, and if they ever get out then deporting them.

Deportation is not the legal consequence I want the Latin gangs to be worrying about.

 

[17 squirrel]

Double.

 

[17 squirrel]

There are borders that are protected by fences and wall all over the world. Almost half of these have been built since 9/11

The border between Botswana and Zimbabwe is separated by an electrified fence. Malaysia and Thailand are separated by a wall, as are Saudi Arabia and Iraq, Iran and Iraq, and Kuwait and Iraq.

Twelve years ago, Israel started to build a 420-mile-long wall that separates the country from the West Bank. It is five to eight meters tall and varies in form: Some parts are built with concrete, others with wire. The Israelis argue that the wall has decreased the number of suicide attacks on their soil.

 

[Fargo]

There are borders that are protected by fences and wall all over the world. Almost half of these have been built since 9/11

The border between Botswana and Zimbabwe is separated by an electrified fence. Malaysia and Thailand are separated by a wall, as are Saudi Arabia and Iraq, Iran and Iraq, and Kuwait and Iraq.

Twelve years ago, Israel started to build a 420-mile-long wall that separates the country from the West Bank. It is five to eight meters tall and varies in form: Some parts are built with concrete, others with wire. The Israelis argue that the wall has decreased the number of suicide attacks on their soil.

You can certainly build a fence, but I question its effectiveness on our southern border without other measures. None of the countries you are talking about have anything remotely like the one-way immigration pressure our southern border does. Most of the middle eastern countries you reference are openly hostile to each other, it isn't so much immigration as defection.

Sure, a lot of Zimbabwe's population isn't exactly keen on staying in Cecil's paradise, but the estimates I've read are about 30,000 illegals in Botswana. I somehow doubt that the electrified "animal fence" on the border really makes much difference.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It's not that I don't think they could do it, they absolutely could. I just prefer they focus on honing their ass kicking skills rather than taking on a policing type mindset. Plus, there might be a posse commitatus issue although I'm not certain of that.

Also, I would like to see enhancements for serious/violent crimes based upon being in the country illegally. IMO The focus shouldn't be on deporting those people because it is far too easy to just come back. The focus should be on the caging them, and if they ever get out then deporting them.

Deportation is not the legal consequence I want the Latin gangs to be worrying about.

There's overlap. Engineers went to JTF-6 because building obstacles is part of the mission. Building real obstacles has more training value. Guard duty is guard duty. It doesn't matter what border its done on. Bivouac (aka camping), the logistics of supporting deployed troops, etc. All of this can be practiced just as effectively on the border as in any FTX on base. Military Intel gets great training in use of sensors, and while drones are well after my .mil time I'd suppose they are replacing the hot air balloons and radar blimps. Rotations are short. We went for 2 months. A "deployment" to NTC is 1 month. Military pilots few us down and back, getting flight hours that they need, etc. Medics looked after boo-boos. We cheated and hired a caterer, but I'm sure field kitchens could have been used. (BTW, I'd punch a baby for some of the salsa that dude made). In short this is very similar to a fake "deployment" to NTC or JRTC for many basic military skills. There are no posse commitatus issues as long as Congress authorizes it. JTF-6 started in 1989. This is not new turf.

You cannot totally secure a border. Perfection is the enemy of good enough, though. I understand that some people are still going to slip through. However the tougher it is, the fewer who will try, and the fewer who will make it. At some point, you must have armed men authorized to use force to protect the border. The more robust the obstacle they are guarding, the less force necessary because fewer people attempt to breach it. Using natural obstacles and erected obstacles, you can funnel your opponent into areas of your choosing so as to increase the efficiency of patrols. The military is uniquely suited for this in terms of skills, personnel, equipment, etc. They do not replace Border Patrol, they supplement Border Patrol.

There must be a real consequence to illegally attempting to cross. Period. Simply putting them back on their side to run again in 12 hours is ridiculous. Arresting them all is impossible. A properly designed and properly manned physical barrier with the possibility of lethal force as appropriate would cut back on your casual hoppers significantly.

BTW - We were HEAVILY recruited by BP when I was there, particularly anyone ETS-ing reasonably soon. Seemed like a poo job to me playing catch and release all day.