Two-Thirds of Americans Favor Citizenship for Illegal Immigrants

[Fargo]

Another appeal to emotion.

Firstly, questions generally cannot be logical fallacies so good luck with that. You can generally tell when anything is a question by the ? at the end of it.

Secondly, What you refer to as an appeal to emotion, others consider to be simply having a conscience. That clearly is not an infirmity which you are afflicted with so don't worry about it.

 

[OakRiver]

What percentage of murders and kidnappings in the US are committed by illegal aliens? I honestly want to know the answer.

Looking at stats from the US Sentencing Commission from the 2014 financial year illegal aliens accounted for 36.7% of all Federal sentences, while making up only 3.5% of the population. Of this;
- 16.8 percent of drug trafficking cases
- 20.0 percent of kidnapping/hostage taking
- 74.1 percent of drug possession
- 12.3 percent of money laundering
- 12.0 percent of murder convictions

 

[Fargo]

Looking at stats from the US Sentencing Commission from the 2014 financial year illegal aliens accounted for 36.7% of all Federal sentences, while making up only 3.5% of the population. Of this;
- 16.8 percent of drug trafficking cases
- 20.0 percent of kidnapping/hostage taking
- 74.1 percent of drug possession
- 12.3 percent of money laundering
- 12.0 percent of murder convictions

Federal convictions are a tiny anomalous percentage of all convictions. Keep trying.

There are 30 state prosecutions for every one federal.


http://litigation.findlaw.com/legal-system/federal-vs-state-courts-key-differences.html

 

[poptab]

Interesting that shooting seems to be the only way folks think we can enforce a secure border.

Keep in mind your property lines are equally "imaginary".

Which is why I don't shoot people for straying into my property.

That said.. Government is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas can't own property.

'Government' property is effectively nobody's property which is why there isn't any political will to build a fence to protect it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Federal convictions are a tiny anomalous percentage of all convictions. Keep trying.

There are 30 state prosecutions for every one federal.


Federal vs. State Courts - Key Differences - FindLaw

Any evidence that the percentages are different?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Which is why I don't shoot people for straying into my property.

That said.. Government is an abstract idea. Abstract ideas can't own property.

'Government' property is effectively nobody's property which is why there isn't any political will to build a fence to protect it.

Ah. So we have the will to keep a US Coast Guard, Customs, Border Patrol, Immigration etc. but because its "abstract" no fences (which we actually have along quite a bit of the border...)

 

[Fargo]

Any evidence that the percentages are different?

Yes federal statutes are of limited jurisdiction per the enumerated powers of the Constitution. State statutes fall under the general police power. For example, there is no general federal murder statute. You have to have a special circumstance, normally that it occurred on federal property. Only very specific murders can even go to federal court.

Plus, even when they do have jurisdiction the feds cherry pick which cases they prosecute and turn the rest over to the state.

You have dealt with them, federal prosecution are very different from anything in state prosecution.

 

[poptab]

Ah. So we have the will to keep a US Coast Guard, Customs, Border Patrol, Immigration etc. but because its "abstract" no fences (which we actually have along quite a bit of the border...)

I wasn't really talking about a literal fence. The literal fence we have is obviously not effective. Or so everyone in this thread seems to bemoan.

 

[IndyDave1776]

It is easy to get shut down with pictures of the cherubic faces of children of illegals who are likely to experience some disruption based on the decisions made by their parents. Ask yourself this: Do you feel enough sympathy for them to accept the ongoing damage to teh nation that illegals cause? Depression in wages? Criminal activity? Maintaining a corridor just as easily used by terrorists? Impinging on the realistic existence of a sovereign nation? Allowing the circumstances to 'fundamentally change the United States' (i.e., turn the place into a third-world sh*thole)?

Let me set aside the abstractions. Do you find yourself sufficiently moved by the poor little children of illegals to throw your own children under the bus for their benefit?

 

[Cerberus]

It is easy to get shut down with pictures of the cherubic faces of children of illegals who are likely to experience some disruption based on the decisions made by their parents. Ask yourself this: Do you feel enough sympathy for them to accept the ongoing damage to teh nation that illegals cause? Depression in wages? Criminal activity? Maintaining a corridor just as easily used by terrorists? Impinging on the realistic existence of a sovereign nation? Allowing the circumstances to 'fundamentally change the United States' (i.e., turn the place into a third-world sh*thole)?

Let me set aside the abstractions. Do you find yourself sufficiently moved by the poor little children of illegals to throw your own children under the bus for their benefit?

Liberals can care less the outcomes of their decisions, they only care about feeling good making those decisions.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Yes federal statutes are of limited jurisdiction per the enumerated powers of the Constitution. State statutes fall under the general police power. For example, there is no general federal murder statute. You have to have a special circumstance, normally that it occurred on federal property. Only very specific murders can even go to federal court.

Plus, even when they do have jurisdiction the feds cherry pick which cases they prosecute and turn the rest over to the state.

You have dealt with them, federal prosecution are very different from anything in state prosecution.

All of which has nothing to do with showing the percentages are different. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but I bet you that you won't find hard numbers because most jurisdictions don't report if someone is illegal or not. I've sat in misdemeanor court and watched people with no SSN and who needed a Spanish translator answer for prostitution and the like. One would assume they were likely illegal, but that doesn't mean the court record reflects that.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It is easy to get shut down with pictures of the cherubic faces of children of illegals who are likely to experience some disruption based on the decisions made by their parents. Ask yourself this: Do you feel enough sympathy for them to accept the ongoing damage to teh nation that illegals cause? Depression in wages? Criminal activity? Maintaining a corridor just as easily used by terrorists? Impinging on the realistic existence of a sovereign nation? Allowing the circumstances to 'fundamentally change the United States' (i.e., turn the place into a third-world sh*thole)?

Let me set aside the abstractions. Do you find yourself sufficiently moved by the poor little children of illegals to throw your own children under the bus for their benefit?

Of course we also going to ignore the cost of the current system.

No mention of the semi-permeable border resulting in the death of about 150-400 illegals a year, primarily due to exposure in the deserts. An actually secure border would reduce the number of people who attempt to cross it, something that keeps getting missed, and in the end could result in less deaths, particularly when combined with other measures as mentioned.

But won't you think of the children? Like the ones who are kidnapped, trafficked, or ransomed by the Coyotes?

Human smuggling: Calling on the coyotes | The Economist

Many children become victims of crime or sex abuse during their unchaperoned journey.

Immigrant families agonize when children cross border - CNN.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/opinion/migrants-dying-on-the-us-mexico-border.html?_r=0

These are complex issues. Looking at one piece in a vacuum, and picking at the negatives of action without looking at the negatives of inaction, results in poor decisions. I'm certainly not convinced that there is one simple and easy solution, but I am 100% convinced there is a workable solution involving both economic and physical barriers to entry. Too many politicians and businesses profit from illegals, though, so we aren't going to get any traction on it anytime soon.

 

[Dead Duck]

Don't forget the "Rape Trees".
Real nice guys crossing our borders.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Don't forget the "Rape Trees".
Real nice guys crossing our borders.

When I still worked the street we had a group of 5 MS-13 gang bangers move into an apartment on my beat. They crashed a quinceanera, assaulted some people who told them to leave, and then fired shots at the party. I pulled over the car almost immediately and the driver was uncooperative to the point of physical confrontation. The gunman was apprehended nearby and was also a resistor, although he ditched his gun prior to trying to hide and then fight. We ended up locking up 4 of the 5 occupants for something over the first week and the 5th guy saw the writing on the wall and decided to seek greener pastures.

I tried calling the ICE law enforcement help line, and that was ridiculous and useless. It's like calling ISP to say there's a guy going 60mph on I-465.

 

[Dead Duck]

When I still worked the street we had a group of 5 MS-13 gang bangers move into an apartment on my beat. They crashed a quinceanera, assaulted some people who told them to leave, and then fired shots at the party. I pulled over the car almost immediately and the driver was uncooperative to the point of physical confrontation. The gunman was apprehended nearby and was also a resistor, although he ditched his gun prior to trying to hide and then fight. We ended up locking up 4 of the 5 occupants for something over the first week and the 5th guy saw the writing on the wall and decided to seek greener pastures.

I tried calling the ICE law enforcement help line, and that was ridiculous and useless. It's like calling ISP to say there's a guy going 60mph on I-465.

Sounds like my old barrio in LA.
I almost miss chewing the air before you can breath it..........NOT.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Of course we also going to ignore the cost of the current system.

No mention of the semi-permeable border resulting in the death of about 150-400 illegals a year, primarily due to exposure in the deserts. An actually secure border would reduce the number of people who attempt to cross it, something that keeps getting missed, and in the end could result in less deaths, particularly when combined with other measures as mentioned.

But won't you think of the children? Like the ones who are kidnapped, trafficked, or ransomed by the Coyotes?

Human smuggling: Calling on the coyotes | The Economist



Immigrant families agonize when children cross border - CNN.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/opinion/migrants-dying-on-the-us-mexico-border.html?_r=0

These are complex issues. Looking at one piece in a vacuum, and picking at the negatives of action without looking at the negatives of inaction, results in poor decisions. I'm certainly not convinced that there is one simple and easy solution, but I am 100% convinced there is a workable solution involving both economic and physical barriers to entry. Too many politicians and businesses profit from illegals, though, so we aren't going to get any traction on it anytime soon.

I agree with all of this. My lack of attention here was more a matter of starting from the position that the US government and its policies are supposed to exist for the benefit of US citizens which was plenty for the moment.

I would definitely support a bounty on coyotes. It worked for the four-legged variety and will also work for the two-legged variety. It would do much toward stopping the porousness of the border.

I believe that stopping the Mexican government from actively assisting border crossing would do much good. My methods would probably make most people on both sides of the aisle scream, but they would work. The idea is predicated on the notion that a county which deliberately and actively undermines our law is NOT our friend, so the fiction of Mexico as a friend/ally/partner would come to a grinding halt.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right about the perfect storm in which the Republicans get cheap labor and the Democrats get potential future voters. Everyone in a position to fix the problem has a motive to see that it does NOT get fixed.

As for MS-13, perhaps we need to find some, well, informal solutions to this problem if those who are supposed to solve it won't.

 

[Fargo]

These are complex issues. Looking at one piece in a vacuum, and picking at the negatives of action without looking at the negatives of inaction, results in poor decisions. I'm certainly not convinced that there is one simple and easy solution, but I am 100% convinced there is a workable solution involving both economic and physical barriers to entry. Too many politicians and businesses profit from illegals, though, so we aren't going to get any traction on it anytime soon.

If you look at post 144, you will see that I in no way advocate for inaction. In fact, I advocated both for beefing up the border and deportation.

What I won't advocate for is shooting them or some sort of mass indiscriminate roundup without doing anything to mitigate the 30 plus years we haven't enforced the law...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If you look at post 144, you will see that I in no way advocate for inaction. In fact, I advocated both for beefing up the border and deportation.

What I won't advocate for is shooting them or some sort of mass indiscriminate roundup without doing anything to mitigate the 30 plus years we haven't enforced the law...

Ok, what's your plan for beefing up the border? You know, without the possibility of having to shoot anyone, your objections to manpower issues being resolved by using the military, your objections that the logistics are insurmountable, the uselessness of unmanned obstacles, etc. It's easy to say "I support a secure border" but let's see your plan that remains true to your stated goals and conforms to reality.

I was a Combat Engineer in the military. 12B is tasked with battlefield mobility, countermobility, and survivability. In short, we demolish obstacles, clear land mines, rig temporary bridges, etc for our guys (mobility). We build obstacles, lay land mines, blow up bridges, set booby traps, sabotage enemy equipment, etc. to reduce their mobility and to funnel them where we want to go (countermobility). We dig fighting positions, clear firing lanes, erect berms, etc (survivability). I say that to say this. Any obstacle without an overwatch is only a speed bump. Your enemy will bypass or dismantle it. If you're fighting a delaying action, that may be the goal. However a sufficient obstacle with an overwatch with the ability to hamper attempts to neutralize your obstacle can hold on for a very long time and with minimal manpower. That means that any fence is going to require armed men to watch it and protect it.

 

[IndyDave1776]

If you look at post 144, you will see that I in no way advocate for inaction. In fact, I advocated both for beefing up the border and deportation.

What I won't advocate for is shooting them or some sort of mass indiscriminate roundup without doing anything to mitigate the 30 plus years we haven't enforced the law...

I can understand the implications of making up for 30 years of non-enforcement in one sitting being harsh on people who have always known the status quo as 'normal'. On the other hand, what about the rest of us who have had negative consequences over 30 years of our own government failing to serve our needs? It will necessarily come down to a conflict in which one group or the other is a winner and the other alternately the loser, which then devolves into the question of whether our government is supposed to serve the interests of its own citizens or serve the interests of foreign nationals, which it seems to do at our expense every chance it gets.

 

[jamil]

Ok, what's your plan for beefing up the border? You know, without the possibility of having to shoot anyone, your objections to manpower issues being resolved by using the military, your objections that the logistics are insurmountable, the uselessness of unmanned obstacles, etc. It's easy to say "I support a secure border" but let's see your plan that remains true to your stated goals and conforms to reality.

I was a Combat Engineer in the military. 12B is tasked with battlefield mobility, countermobility, and survivability. In short, we demolish obstacles, clear land mines, rig temporary bridges, etc for our guys (mobility). We build obstacles, lay land mines, blow up bridges, set booby traps, sabotage enemy equipment, etc. to reduce their mobility and to funnel them where we want to go (countermobility). We dig fighting positions, clear firing lanes, erect berms, etc (survivability). I say that to say this. Any obstacle without an overwatch is only a speed bump. Your enemy will bypass or dismantle it. If you're fighting a delaying action, that may be the goal. However a sufficient obstacle with an overwatch with the ability to hamper attempts to neutralize your obstacle can hold on for a very long time and with minimal manpower. That means that any fence is going to require armed men to watch it and protect it.

I agree that it's necessary to secure the fence and protect it. And that requires armed people. But that's a bit different from what some people were describing. That scenario seemed more like guys sitting in towers sniping away at would be illegal immigrants.