The 9mm sucks. Man shot 21 times still alive.

[U.S. Patriot]

Not a fan of the 9mm in anything, just not enough knock down power. But isn't the 380 basically a short 38?

Not an expert in anything but switch between a 45 caliber stainless Colt combat commander and S&W Sigma 40 caliber, like the 14+1 round capacity of this one, with an extra clip give me all the ammo you should need for about any circumstances

Bill

Knock down power is a myth. You really think shooting someone, with a bigger caliber is going to knock them down? This is not Hollywood, this is reality. People have survived from multiple shots, from even a .40 or .45. Stop watching Steven Sagal movies, it's clogging your brain cells . Also it's called a magazine, not a clip!

 

[Jack Ryan]

9mm is my goto round for self defense guns. I have .357, .38, .380 and .45 which are strictly used for range shooting only. All 3 of my current carry guns are in 9mm as will be any future ones as well.

Every gun I've ever owned was bought with the intent to kill something with it. Some of them I still have.

 

[Aszerigan]

I think everyone is missing the point. NYPD use glock 19s as duty weapons.

Go figure.

As opposed to XD9's, Hi powers, or Beretta 92's which are terrible weapons as well.

A 9mm is a perfectly useful weapon in the right, capable, and accurate hands. 9mm shooters represent.

 

[96firephoenix]

Meanwhile, some locals who witnessed the gunfight that left six people, including two cops, wounded are disputing the NYPD's version of events, saying that the officers — some of them in plainclothes — never identified themselves as law enforcement.
"Never once did you hear 'Freeze,'" Shariff Spencer told the New York Times' Trymaine Lee and Colin Moynihan. "Never once did you hear 'Stop.' Never once did you hear 'NYPD.'"

this seems to me to be irrelevent. if you see someone get shot, you are allowed to shoot the BG, whether you are a cop and announce it or not. I'd also assume that since it says "some of them in plain clothes" that the majority were in uniform... so thats announcement enough.

 

[Aszerigan]

this seems to me to be irrelevent. if you see someone get shot, you are allowed to shoot the BG, whether you are a cop and announce it or not. I'd also assume that since it says "some of them in plain clothes" that the majority were in uniform... so thats announcement enough.

Is this true?

 

[FatGeek]

this seems to me to be irrelevent. if you see someone get shot, you are allowed to shoot the BG, whether you are a cop and announce it or not. I'd also assume that since it says "some of them in plain clothes" that the majority were in uniform... so thats announcement enough.

Is this true?

I disagree.

The wording above includes conceal carry citizens in the statement. The problem I have with it is it assumes the shooter is the bad guy. How do you know that he isn't defending himself from an attack? I'm not saying you shouldn't start figuring out the best way to take him out, but for you being a third party to just start shooting him is very wrong. If his only concern is that one person, and he isn't continuing to shoot other people, how is he a threat? The context the statement above is made in, does not give room for another conceal carry citizen to defend himself without another conceal carry citizen that didn't see the first half of the encounter, start shooting the first conceal carry guy.

This is a huge concern I have with carrying on a daily basis. God forbid I have to ace a dirtbag, there's too many hotshots running around with a carry permit and range time that are willing to start sending hot lead into any shooter in public they see, whether they see the first half of the encounter or not.

How do you know the shooter isn't defending himself, and is simply going to reholster his gun and pull out a cell phone and call the police after the threat is neutralized?


/rant

 

[tbhausen]

^ this ^

 

[Amishman44]

Don't forget that darn 'NY Trigger'! Remember, leaders in NYC don't trust their LEO's so they have to have that heavy 8# trigger...you know, the one that pulls their gun to the right when they pull it because it's too heavy to squeeze!!!

Point a gun at a cop...what do you think is going to happen!

Have you ever watched one of those 'gang banger' TV shows where the ganger's proud of all of his bullet wounds? They pull up their shirts and show you the scar where they got hit...and we suddenly understand why the cost of medicine keeps going up...it's to help these non-insured, non-paying, GB's survive all their crap!

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Don't forget that darn 'NY Trigger'! Remember, leaders in NYC don't trust their LEO's so they have to have that heavy 8# trigger...you know, the one that pulls their gun to the right when they pull it because it's too heavy to squeeze!!!

Point a gun at a cop...what do you think is going to happen!

Have you ever watched one of those 'gang banger' TV shows where the ganger's proud of all of his bullet wounds? They pull up their shirts and show you the scar where they got hit...and we suddenly understand why the cost of medicine keeps going up...it's to help these non-insured, non-paying, GB's survive all their crap!

Yes that is some BS. That's why they should shoot them in the head a few times. Make sure they are dead .

 

[starcrack]

Don't forget that darn 'NY Trigger'! Remember, leaders in NYC don't trust their LEO's so they have to have that heavy 8# trigger...you know, the one that pulls their gun to the right when they pull it because it's too heavy to squeeze!!!

Point a gun at a cop...what do you think is going to happen!

Have you ever watched one of those 'gang banger' TV shows where the ganger's proud of all of his bullet wounds? They pull up their shirts and show you the scar where they got hit...and we suddenly understand why the cost of medicine keeps going up...it's to help these non-insured, non-paying, GB's survive all their crap!

I don't think that's the point. U.S. laws enforce the highest level of judicial standards for our LEO's and for good reason. Breach of that standard, I believe, is a violation of the American spirit, and in a way that's far worse than dealing drugs, pimping hoes, and whatever bad guys do nowadays. Most people are understandably frustrated whenever a clearly guilty criminal goes free because of "technicalities". But those technicalities are exactly what separates us from animals like the Taliban. Thomas Jefferson said, "I'd rather have a hundred guilty men go free than have a single innocent man rot in jail."

In this case, a LEO has LESS 'rights' than the most worthless, stupid, mud-caked, gang banger. That is, they are held to a much higher standard of behavior. And for good reason. I salute those that can hold themselves to this high standard in the service of us. Those that cannot, have failed in their duty, pure and simple, and they ought to step aside who can step up to that challenge.

 

[Rockafella]

Knock down power is a myth. You really think shooting someone, with a bigger caliber is going to knock them down? This is not Hollywood, this is reality. People have survived from multiple shots, from even a .40 or .45. Stop watching Steven Sagal movies, it's clogging your brain cells . Also it's called a magazine, not a clip!

Knock Down power a myth. Have you ever heard of inertia? it's that tiny little tidbit of information they leave out when they do the velocity / foot pounds of energy equation.

now i will give you the "hollywood is bs". we all know that but if you shoot a man in the chest at 15ft with a 9mm (147gr bullet), he will keep coming. If you shoot a man in the chest at 15ft with a .45 (230gr bullet), it will knock him off his feet.

It's like i tell my friends that don't know much about guns when they ask about a 9mm vs. a .45. Would you rather me take a piece of pea gravel and throw it at your chest as fast and as hard as i can or would you rather i lob a brick at you? Most with sense choose the fast pea gravel and for good reason. Inertia!!

Remember the shootout in Miami where the feds had glock 9mm's and the 'bad guys' had .45's. That is when the feds went to the .40. The feds were massacred.

Why a country that won multiple wars with the 30.06 (introduced in 1906 hence the .06) and the .45 would go to .223 and a 9mm stifles me. I realize the women can't shoot the 30.06 and the .45 and that is partly the reason for the change. they try to hype up the .223 like its the greatest. yet it's used for 'varmints'. Last i checked, a man was larger than a varmint.

There is no way anyone can make a case that a 55gr .223 is a better killer than a 150/165gr 30.06 no matter what the velocity (btw, the .223/55gr velocity is 3200fps and the 150 30.06 is 2910). Don't forget about INTERTIA!!

Ask anyone in Viet Nam and they will tell you they would rather, and requested to, carry a remington 870 12 gauge vs. a M16.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Knock Down power a myth. Have you ever heard of inertia? it's that tiny little tidbit of information they leave out when they do the velocity / foot pounds of energy equation.

now i will give you the "hollywood is bs". we all know that but if you shoot a man in the chest at 15ft with a 9mm (147gr bullet), he will keep coming. If you shoot a man in the chest at 15ft with a .45 (230gr bullet), it will knock him off his feet.

It's like i tell my friends that don't know much about guns when they ask about a 9mm vs. a .45. Would you rather me take a piece of pea gravel and throw it at your chest as fast and as hard as i can or would you rather i lob a brick at you? Most with sense choose the fast pea gravel and for good reason. Inertia!!

Remember the shootout in Miami where the feds had glock 9mm's and the 'bad guys' had .45's. That is when the feds went to the .40. The feds were massacred.

Why a country that won multiple wars with the 30.06 (introduced in 1906 hence the .06) and the .45 would go to .223 and a 9mm stifles me. I realize the women can't shoot the 30.06 and the .45 and that is partly the reason for the change. they try to hype up the .223 like its the greatest. yet it's used for 'varmints'. Last i checked, a man was larger than a varmint.

There is no way anyone can make a case that a 55gr .223 is a better killer than a 150/165gr 30.06 no matter what the velocity (btw, the .223/55gr velocity is 3200fps and the 150 30.06 is 2910). Don't forget about INTERTIA!!

Ask anyone in Viet Nam and they will tell you they would rather, and requested to, carry a remington 870 12 gauge vs. a M16.

Ok new jack. First off we are talking pistols rounds, not 30-06 or .223. Second of all they carried 1911's in Vietnam. Show me one case where a .45, actualy knocked a guy off of his feet. Where talking pistol rounds here, not shotgun or rifle rounds. The .45 being fired out of a pistol, does not have the size or velocity to knock someone off of their feet. Just ask someone that had to plug a VC, close quarters in Vietnam. Not even a .357 has the power to knock someone off of their feet. Make them fall yes, but that's different then being knocked. Unless they weigh less then a wet paper bag. I have heard tons of stories from a friend of my Dad's. Who by the way is a retired IPD officer, and was in Vietnam. So he has seen his share of ****. Do you hear that? Your Steven Sagal movie is starting. Better grab your popcorn, and ninja kool-aid. Out

 

[Rockafella]

Ok new jack. First off we are talking pistols rounds, not 30-06 or .223. Second of all they carried 1911's in Vietnam. Show me one case where a .45, actualy knocked a guy off of his feet. Where talking pistol rounds here, not shotgun or rifle rounds. The .45 being fired out of a pistol, does not have the size or velocity to knock someone off of their feet. Just ask someone that had to plug a VC, close quarters in Vietnam. Not even a .357 has the power to knock someone off of their feet. Make them fall yes, but that's different then being knocked. Unless they weigh less then a wet paper bag. I have heard tons of stories from a friend of my Dad's. Who by the way is a retired IPD officer, and was in Vietnam. So he has seen his share of ****. Do you hear that? Your Steven Sagal movie is starting. Better grab your popcorn, and ninja kool-aid. Out

the point of 30.06 and shotguns etc was inertia. i guess they don't teach that in school these days. 9mm vs. .45? 9mm doesn't come close. i don't have to ask anyone what a .45 will do at 15 ft. i know. go listen to some more stories. I'm sure they are entertaining. You initial comment "knock down power is a myth" is the most ridiculous thing i have read in ages. That was the only reason i replied.

 

[cjacobs]

the point of 30.06 and shotguns etc was inertia. i guess they don't teach that in school these days. 9mm vs. .45? 9mm doesn't come close. i don't have to ask anyone what a .45 will do at 15 ft. i know. go listen to some more stories. I'm sure they are entertaining. You initial comment "knock down power is a myth" is the most ridiculous thing i have read in ages. That was the only reason i replied.

i hear blow hards like you come in everyday talking how good this is and how bad this is and how yours is better and theirs is worse. How my dad did this and my dad did that. I'm accustomed to dealing with dumb a$. Your type isn't new to me. I do enjoy those that can say, i did this and i did that though. quite a different bunch

blast me all you want. i could care less. I probably won't see it anyway. Won't change the fact that your statement "knock down power is a myth" was the rantings of an imbecile (do you know what that means?)

knock down power is a myth.

Take a quick run over here: Terminal Ballistic Information - M4Carbine.net Forums

Talk to some of the locals, come back after.

 

[tantnguyen15]

with hollowpoints? =]

 

[theweakerbrother]

Smells like ARFCOM in here.

 

[OVERTHEHILLGUY]

Grave yards are filled with people who were shot by 9mm.

We all know handguns are underpowered, when compared to rifle or shotgun.

We all know (or should know )....

Shot placement is the king of battle.

Bullet penetration is the queen of battle.

Jerry Thomas

 

[17Chap]

with hollowpoints? =]

Good question, does anyone know if NYC has gotten away from their prohibition on hollowpoints for law enforcement? Ball ammo was the requirement but my info is a few years old.

Years ago in training we saw a video of some dude who took rounds to the tune of the teens in number before he ceased to fight. I also seem to remember that Jim Currillo wrote about a stake out partner and he bumping into an armed robber on their way home after a shift. The perp suffered several 38 special wounds to the head. At one point he asked for a hankie and blew a slug from his nose. He survived.

Shootings are strange things.

Jess

 

[valposhooter]

don't they carry shotguns too for times like this?

 

[delly72]

any bets on if he sues the NYPD and wins?

ya he will win.