The 9mm sucks. Man shot 21 times still alive.

[Trevlan]

That's the dumbest that I've ever heard. Wider bullets will always do more damage regardless of any advancement in bullet technology. The width disparity only increases with expansion because of cross sectional density. Modern hollow points expand more consistently and with greater weight retention than older designs. They aren't somehow deadlier because of their construction. A bullet needs to be as wide as possible with more than adequate penetration. 9mm fails on both criteria and can only realistically be considered marginal for self defense.

Damage is negligable upon the round. Please refer to these charts as reference.


45 Cal acp
45 ACP Stopping Power

9mm (roughly 30 cal)
9 mm Stopping Power

Best performing 45 acp round was: Remington 185 gr GS (Golden Saber) with a 69 cal expansion and 12.4" of penetration.
Best performing 9mm round was: Federal 124 gr HS (Hydra Shok) with a 67 cal expansion and 14.5" of penetration.

Looks like the 9mm round got the expansion and the penetration.

 

[kingnereli]

Damage is negligable upon the round. Please refer to these charts as reference.


45 Cal acp
45 ACP Stopping Power

9mm (roughly 30 cal)
9 mm Stopping Power

Best performing 45 acp round was: Remington 185 gr GS (Golden Saber) with a 69 cal expansion and 12.4" of penetration.
Best performing 9mm round was: Federal 124 gr HS (Hydra Shok) with a 67 cal expansion and 14.5" of penetration.

Looks like the 9mm round got the expansion and the penetration.

It isn't consistent. That is sub-par 45 performance and unusual 9mm performance. Empirical evidence like the book referenced by the chart always holds 45 as superior.

ETA: That was a cool trick handpicking the information that you liked. the largest 45 expansion was .78 while it was .69 for 9mm. The largest penetration was 20.4 for 45 and 17.5 for 9mm. It is not the dead heat you portrayed it to be.

 

[XtremeVel]

That's the dumbest that I've ever heard. Wider bullets will always do more damage regardless of any advancement in bullet technology. The width disparity only increases with expansion because of cross sectional density. Modern hollow points expand more consistently and with greater weight retention than older designs. They aren't somehow deadlier because of their construction. A bullet needs to be as wide as possible with more than adequate penetration. 9mm fails on both criteria and can only realistically be considered marginal for self defense.

While I am comfortable with the .355 dia bullet, I will never be convinced it will consistently be as effective as the .45.

I do view the point about construction differently though. Not so much they magically become more destructive depending on the construction, but rather a improper construction for the intended use can lead to failure. A 115 gr lightly constructed and outdated Sierra JHP in .355 dia leaving my G32 barrel at 1500 fps sure is fun shooting into the mud bank, but would be a total failure as a reliable self defense load.

 

[Trevlan]

It isn't consistent. That is sub-par 45 performance and unusual 9mm performance. Empirical evidence like the book referenced by the chart always holds 45 as superior.

I'm not saying that one round is superrior to another. The argument was expansion and penetration. The best performing round for the 45 cal, had a 98% one shot stops as opposed to the 9mm's 85%. Still very high for both. And usually, with 9mm weapons, you can hold more rounds over the 45 counter part.

But, another thing to consider is clothes, and how cloth affects the expansion of HP rounds.

At the end of the day, I always say, shoot with what you are more comfortable and more accurate with. Placement is critical.

 

[Trevlan]

It isn't consistent. That is sub-par 45 performance and unusual 9mm performance. Empirical evidence like the book referenced by the chart always holds 45 as superior.

ETA: That was a cool trick handpicking the information that you liked. the largest 45 expansion was .78 while it was .69 for 9mm. The largest penetration was 20.4 for 45 and 17.5 for 9mm. It is not the dead heat you portrayed it to be.

I didn't hand pick anything. I chose the round at the top of the list, which was sorted by one hit stops. The 45 was damn near 100%. It's an excellent round. Maybe we should all carry Desert Eagles, that's a bigger round than the 45.

All I'm saying is, the man was lucky. Amadu Dialo wasn't and he was hit only 19 times. If he were hit once in the head, or lung shot, or heart, he would be out for good. Now this murderer is going to get a substantial law suit reward for cruel and unsusual punishment.

 

[kingnereli]

While I am comfortable with the .355 dia bullet, I will never be convinced it will consistently be as effective as the .45.

I do view the point about construction differently though. Not so much they magically become more destructive depending on the construction, but rather a improper construction for the intended use can lead to failure. A 115 gr lightly constructed and outdated Sierra JHP in .355 dia leaving my G32 barrel at 1500 fps sure is fun shooting into the mud bank, but would be a total failure as a reliable self defense load.

Can you define "failure." If you are talking doesn't expand, sheds jacket, fragments, etc. then we are on the same page. Proper construction means consistency.

I'm not saying that one round is superrior to another. The argument was expansion and penetration. The best performing round for the 45 cal, had a 98% one shot stops as opposed to the 9mm's 85%. Still very high for both. And usually, with 9mm weapons, you can hold more rounds over the 45 counter part.

But, another thing to consider is clothes, and how cloth affects the expansion of HP rounds.

At the end of the day, I always say, shoot with what you are more comfortable and more accurate with. Placement is critical.

Fair enough. The advice I always give is to shoot the largest caliber you shoot well enough. I like the Ed Mcgivern test. That is a five shot, five inch group at five yards in under five seconds. I can do it faster with a .22 than I can a 9mm. I won't carry a .22 for self defense either. Once you have determined the largest caliber you can do that with and have given consideration to other things like how important capacity is, how cost effective you caliber needs to be,etc. you have found what you should carry for self defense. It has been my experience that very few people land on 9mm with this criteria. Not everyone lands on .45 either but 9 is rare.

 

[Trevlan]

Can you define "failure." If you are talking doesn't expand, sheds jacket, fragments, etc. then we are on the same page. Proper construction means consistency.



Fair enough. The advice I always give is to shoot the largest caliber you shoot well enough. I like the Ed Mcgivern test. That is a five shot, five inch group at five yards in under five seconds. I can do it faster with a .22 than I can a 9mm. I won't carry a .22 for self defense either. Once you have determined the largest caliber you can do that with and have given consideration to other things like how important capacity is, how cost effective you caliber needs to be,etc. you have found what you should carry for self defense. It has been my experience that very few people land on 9mm with this criteria. Not everyone lands on .45 either but 9 is rare.

If I'm not mistaken, the faster the bullet travels, the more recoil it will produce. So, In some instances, the 45 would be a better option. But I've never shot one, so it's all theory. I'm sure the supersonic 9mm round has some serious kick to it.

I'm in total agreement with you on the largest caliber you can shoot accurately.

On a side note, I can tripple tap my Taurus PT 24/7 (9mm) and be within a 5" group at 5 yards. My double tap is a much tighter group. I put 17 rounds into the head of a paper target in under 20 seconds last time I was at the range, and the distance was 10 yards.

What we all should do as responsible gun owners is to educate ourselves as much as we can on the technique of using a firearm. It's amazing what some of these speed shooters can accomplish.

 

[XtremeVel]

Can you define "failure." If you are talking doesn't expand, sheds jacket, fragments, etc. then we are on the same page. Proper construction means consistency.

Failure as in worthless ! Fragmentation or sheding the jacket are both present and concerning. As for not expanding, I find the opposite. If anything, I would say over expansion, thus leading to lack of penetration.

Thats the issue I see with bullet construction between the (2) calibers... One is proven effective in just about any bullet configuration and the other has really made up much difference, but I really question some of the choices out there in bullet selection.

 

[Trevlan]

While I am comfortable with the .355 dia bullet, I will never be convinced it will consistently be as effective as the .45.

I do view the point about construction differently though. Not so much they magically become more destructive depending on the construction, but rather a improper construction for the intended use can lead to failure. A 115 gr lightly constructed and outdated Sierra JHP in .355 dia leaving my G32 barrel at 1500 fps sure is fun shooting into the mud bank, but would be a total failure as a reliable self defense load.

You've shot both cals, which one produces the most recoil and is harder to get the second shot off?

 

[XtremeVel]

I own and regulary shoot (3) calibers. 9mm, .45ACP, and .357 Sig... I wouldn't agree with your assement on recoil. The .45 produces a different type but more recoil. If comparing equal bullet weights, I would be more lilely to agree that more velocity = more felt recoil. You got to remember bullet weight. Look at it like resistance leaving the muzzle.


My EDC is the .357 sig, our SHTF weapons are 9mm (G19's) and I sleep with a .45 under my pillow.

My EDC would be the .45 if it weren't so darn big and expensive to shoot as much as I would like to.

The .355 bullet is what my wife and son shoots well. It also is so much cheaper to load and shoot.

 

[mikeplan14]

wow