The 9mm sucks. Man shot 21 times still alive.

[VUPDblue]

Remember the shootout in Miami where the feds had glock 9mm's and the 'bad guys' had .45's. That is when the feds went to the .40. The feds were massacred.

I don't know what the cause of your pot-stirring is, but you stink at history. If you are referring to the South Miami Shootout between FBI agents and suspects Platt and Matix, where Agents Grogan and Dove were killed along with both suspects, you are way inaccurate in your quote. While the shootout did lead to the FBI taking up the 10mm and later the .40S&W, the agents were all armed with Smith and Wesson handguns, some with revolvers and some with autos. The suspects were armed with a shotgun, a Mini14 and several .357 revolvers. There was no .45ACP present during that engagement. Just FYI.

 

[bcd007]

Thank you VUPDblue, I was going to mention the same thing.

 

[VUPDblue]

If you're gonna violate rule #1 at least have your facts straight.

 

[tbhausen]

If you're gonna violate rule #1 at least have your facts straight.

Thanks... A well-moderated forum is a wonderful thing.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

I knew this one guy, an instructor at the Academy, Army Sniper. Really gungho kind of guy. Talked about how he fired 3 shots at a fellow. First one nailed the guy, shoulder area. The guy jumped up, started running (WTF - Came out of my Instructor mouth) then fired off two more shots. Second was a miss, third blew his head off.



Kool aid in the snow, folks.



I put my money on placement, screw lobbing ammo down at the threat, unless you plan to use THAT for a purpose.

 

[Orsetto Lavatore]

Knock Down power a myth. Have you ever heard of inertia? it's that tiny little tidbit of information they leave out when they do the velocity / foot pounds of energy equation.

now i will give you the "hollywood is bs". we all know that but if you shoot a man in the chest at 15ft with a 9mm (147gr bullet), he will keep coming. If you shoot a man in the chest at 15ft with a .45 (230gr bullet), it will knock him off his feet.

Your ignorance of firearms is rivaled only by your ignorance of physics.

Have you heard of MOMENTUM? Its what you meant to say when you wrote your quip amount inertia. Inertia is an objects resistance to changes in its state of motion. Since inertia has no VECTOR, its basically useless as far as ballistics are concerned. MOMENTUM on the other hand is quantifiable, and possesses a defined vector.

Take a look at your precious "tidbit" in real numbers:

22LR: 40gr @ 1200fps = 1.0 Newtons / second
44spl: 200gr @ 870fps = 3.4 Newtons / second
9mm: 147gr @ 1200fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
40sw: 180gr @ 985fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
45acp: 230gr @ 830fps = 3.7 Newtons / second
357 mag: 158gr @ 1450fps = 4.5 Newtons / second
44mag: 240gr @ 1,100fps = 5.2 Newtons / second

This ignores air resistance and loss of velocity that results. These numbers are snap shots at the muzzle. The poor BC of the 45 bullet would likely leave the 9mm with an advantage at any distance.

The actual difference in momentum between 9mm and 45 is 5% or less dependent on loading. In simpler words, a 9mm possesses 95% of the momentum of a 45 acp.

In short, your an ignorant TROLL. This is where I give you negative rep, and then add you to my ignore list.

 

[VUPDblue]

Your ignorance of firearms is rivaled only by your ignorance of physics.

Have you heard of MOMENTUM? Its what you meant to say when you wrote your quip amount inertia. Inertia is an objects resistance to changes in its state of motion. Since inertia has no VECTOR, its basically useless as far as ballistics are concerned. MOMENTUM on the other hand is quantifiable, and possesses a defined vector.

Take a look at your precious "tidbit" in real numbers:

22LR: 40gr @ 1200fps = 1.0 Newtons / second
44spl: 200gr @ 870fps = 3.4 Newtons / second
9mm: 147gr @ 1200fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
40sw: 180gr @ 985fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
45acp: 230gr @ 830fps = 3.7 Newtons / second
357 mag: 158gr @ 1450fps = 4.5 Newtons / second
44mag: 240gr @ 1,100fps = 5.2 Newtons / second

This ignores air resistance and loss of velocity that results. These numbers are snap shots at the muzzle. The poor BC of the 45 bullet would likely leave the 9mm with an advantage at any distance.

The actual difference in momentum between 9mm and 45 is 5% or less dependent on loading. In simpler words, a 9mm possesses 95% of the momentum of a 45 acp.

In short, your an ignorant TROLL. This is where I give you negative rep, and then add you to my ignore list.

/thread

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Your ignorance of firearms is rivaled only by your ignorance of physics.

Have you heard of MOMENTUM? Its what you meant to say when you wrote your quip amount inertia. Inertia is an objects resistance to changes in its state of motion. Since inertia has no VECTOR, its basically useless as far as ballistics are concerned. MOMENTUM on the other hand is quantifiable, and possesses a defined vector.

Take a look at your precious "tidbit" in real numbers:

22LR: 40gr @ 1200fps = 1.0 Newtons / second
44spl: 200gr @ 870fps = 3.4 Newtons / second
9mm: 147gr @ 1200fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
40sw: 180gr @ 985fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
45acp: 230gr @ 830fps = 3.7 Newtons / second
357 mag: 158gr @ 1450fps = 4.5 Newtons / second
44mag: 240gr @ 1,100fps = 5.2 Newtons / second

This ignores air resistance and loss of velocity that results. These numbers are snap shots at the muzzle. The poor BC of the 45 bullet would likely leave the 9mm with an advantage at any distance.

The actual difference in momentum between 9mm and 45 is 5% or less dependent on loading. In simpler words, a 9mm possesses 95% of the momentum of a 45 acp.

In short, your an ignorant TROLL. This is where I give you negative rep, and then add you to my ignore list.

Excellent post, I would rep you but I'm dry.

 

[Cemetery-man]

Excellent post, I would rep you but I'm dry.

 

[ghitch75]

pump that 830fps on the 45 to a grand and i bet the #'s would show a bit different......830 is light target load in my book...

btw...a link on this info would be nice....

 

[OVERTHEHILLGUY]

HEY , COOL IT!! THIS SUPPOSE TO BE FUN.

EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT THEIR OWN OPINION.

STOP-STOP THE TROLL CRAP.

ENJOY LIFE! HAVE A FRIDAY NIGHT COCKTAIL

 

[pudly]

pump that 830fps on the 45 to a grand and i bet the #'s would show a bit different......830 is light target load in my book...

btw...a link on this info would be nice....

I was curious and just did some checking at MidwayUSA. After looking at 40+ different commercial brands/loads in 9mm and the same number in .45, I'd say you are correct. That data is suspect.

It looks like 45s are generally in the 835-950fps range (roughly half at the low end). I did find a couple of lower weight rounds at 1000fps and exactly one 230 grain- a DoubleTap at 1000fps. But that data row picked the low-end velocity.

However, that 9mm rating appears to be bogus. Most of the 9mm 147gr rounds were right around 1000fps, not 1200. A significant difference. I didn't see a single one of those heavyweight 9mms that came in at 1200fps, though some lower weight rounds did.

Edit- I did find one 9mm at 1175fps- a Buffalo Bore.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a 9mm fan.

 

[ghitch75]

I was curious and just did some checking at MidwayUSA. After looking at 40+ different commercial brands/loads in 9mm and the same number in .45, I'd say you are correct. That data is suspect.

It looks like 45s are generally in the 835-950fps range (roughly half at the low end). I did find a couple of lower weight rounds at 1000fps and exactly one 230 grain- a DoubleTap at 1000fps. But that data row picked the low-end velocity.

However, that 9mm rating appears to be bogus. Most of the 9mm 147gr rounds were right around 1000fps, not 1200. A significant difference. I didn't see a single one of those heavyweight 9mms that came in at 1200fps, though some lower weight rounds did.

Oh, and for the record, I'm a 9mm fan.

i don't think you could get enough powder in a 9mm with a 147gr to go 1200...i'm not trin' to cause trouble just the facts...

 

[Joe Williams]

I was curious and just did some checking at MidwayUSA. After looking at 40+ different commercial brands/loads in 9mm and the same number in .45, I'd say you are correct. That data is suspect.

It looks like 45s are generally in the 835-950fps range (roughly half at the low end). I did find a couple of lower weight rounds at 1000fps and exactly one 230 grain- a DoubleTap at 1000fps. But that data row picked the low-end velocity.
snip.

I've chrono'd quite a few different factory loads from a 1911. For me, the results showed 850 fps to be fairly normal for a 230 grain bullet, and so that is what I loaded my handloads to.

 

[XtremeVel]

i don't think you could get enough powder in a 9mm with a 147gr to go 1200...i'm not trin' to cause trouble just the facts...

You wouldn't be able to with covential wisdom. Using a slower burning powder would fill the case up and leave you far from the 1200. Now, if a much slower powder were used, you could probably get enough in to get yourself in trouble ! I would think you would find trouble before you see the 1200 FPS threshold.

It takes a max load of Blue Dot for me to hit that 1200 FPS using a 147 gr .355 dia, but this is in a .357 sig, rather than a 9mm and also out of the longer G35 barrel.

 

[Orsetto Lavatore]

I used some quick guide references, and I didn't see that the 147gr load listed @ 1,200fps was a Buffalo Bore handgun load: it was not listed as +P in the reference I saw. My mistake.

Corrected for more conventional 115 & 124 grain fare, the momentum equates to 2.9 Newtons / second, or 78% of a standard 45acp. - 9mm 124 grain +P equates to 3.0 Newtons / second, or 81% of the 45acps momentum.

This data set is a little less dramatic, but the end result is still the same. For anyone who wants to run these numbers themselves, the equations are pretty simple, and available from many internet sources.

 

[xHwyLT]

wasnt there a article on here recently about New York City wanting to pass and ordinance requiring their Police Officers to shoot people in the arms and legs if possible if they had to fire? I think that department and city is very corrupt, but im sure they have good cops still that probly feel like they are having their hands tied behind their backs. all this case is gonna do is fuel the lefts boat, and make them think its possible to make these kind of shoots without killing suspects, so then when a bullet hits a major artery and the suspect dies they are gonna be all up the officers ass. Theres no way i would be a cop in any city, but especialy New York.

Your right, there was an attempt by the NYC City Council to pass that ruling, but it was quickly squashed, when the NYPD brass made arrangements for some of the city council members to attempt to shoot a paper target in the arms or legs. The politicos must have had a light bulb go on in their peanut sized brains that it would almost be impossible in a stressful situation like a shooting. Common sense won for once. I personally think the politicos in NYC are idiots, but what do I know, I'm only a lowly ex-civil servant, not a billionaire.

 

[xHwyLT]

Good question, does anyone know if NYC has gotten away from their prohibition on hollowpoints for law enforcement? Ball ammo was the requirement but my info is a few years old.

Years ago in training we saw a video of some dude who took rounds to the tune of the teens in number before he ceased to fight. I also seem to remember that Jim Currillo wrote about a stake out partner and he bumping into an armed robber on their way home after a shift. The perp suffered several 38 special wounds to the head. At one point he asked for a hankie and blew a slug from his nose. He survived.

Shootings are strange things.

Jess

When Bill Bratton was the Police Commissioner for NYTPD (Transit), he authorized the Glock 19 (9mm), if it wasn't for him NYPD probably would still be carrying S&W Model 10's chambered in 38 Special (158 grain semi-wad cutters). NYPD & most LE agencies in NYS now authorize hollow points. I believe you were thinking about the Winchester Silver Tips that were first used by NYTPD (Transit) in the 80's or 90's (don't remember when they switched over). But it's not the round or 9mm caliber, that was the problem. They were Speer LE (law enforcment) 124grain GDHP (Gold Dot Hollow Points), this is the authorized NYC law enforcement round. The only bad thing about the NYPD Glock 19 is the NY2 trigger (12 lb trigger). My old agency and most other agencies in NYS, use the NY1 trigger (8lb trigger). The civilian Glock 19 I believe has a 5.5lb trigger. IMO that 6.5lb difference is the difference between hits & misses. Another part of the problem is most city cops don't go to the range more times than needed to qualify. The 12 lb trigger really needs getting use to, in a high stress situation, most people just yank on the trigger, that's why the hit ratio percentage is the way it is.
In answer to the other posters question, shotguns are only authorized for certain units in NYC.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Back in the day I used to have a magazine article on my wall that I often looked at before going on duty. It had six brief stories, three on each page opposite one another. The three on the left were about people taking multiple hits and surviving. One guy took five hits to the body with a .44 and one hit to the hand and still managed to drive himself to the hospital. The three stories on the right were about people who took minor injuries, panicked and lost their lives. The one of those that I recall most was a guy who was hit in the crook of his elbow with a .22, panicked, went into shock and bled to death.

I can personally recall seeing a big, muscular guy shot dead by a single round from a .380 and also seeing an elderly man shot several times in the chest by a .380. The elderly guy was in the process of choking the shooter when we arrived.

I would say its shot placement first and mental attitude a close second.

I agree that mental attitude plays a significant roll in survival. If you give up the will to live, your body will shut down. Something my superiors always reminded us of. In case we where shot in the line of duty. Another key factor is if the assailant is under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

wasnt there a article on here recently about New York City wanting to pass and ordinance requiring their Police Officers to shoot people in the arms and legs if possible if they had to fire? I think that department and city is very corrupt, but im sure they have good cops still that probly feel like they are having their hands tied behind their backs. all this case is gonna do is fuel the lefts boat, and make them think its possible to make these kind of shoots without killing suspects, so then when a bullet hits a major artery and the suspect dies they are gonna be all up the officers ass. Theres no way i would be a cop in any city, but especialy New York.

You could not pay me enough to be a LEO in New Crap Whole!