The 9mm sucks. Man shot 21 times still alive.

[mconley]

Most people have 10 fingers and 10 toes, there alone twenty spots on the body to be shot without losing life. Over 50 rounds fired and only 21 hits? I think some LEO's ought to be going to the range more often. Glad I didn't live downstream of that firefight.

Or buy them all Grand Theft Auto, and make them play for 2hrs a day... According to the news that makes kids shoot up the block with dead on accuracy.

 

[poisonspyder]

Or buy them all Grand Theft Auto, and make them play for 2hrs a day... According to the news that makes kids shoot up the block with dead on accuracy.

had to chuckel at this. they should make the game with poor accuracy so this does not happen.

 

[billt]

Today, with all of the excellent expanding defensive pistol ammunition that is avaliable to all shooters and CCW holders, caliber is no longer a valid argument as to the effectiveness of a given round. The factor that will determine the killing power of a round is bullet construction, not diameter.

The best example I can give you of this was the recent shooting in Tuscon, Arizona of Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford's. Gifford's was shot in the head by a 9 MM round of FMJ Ball ammunition. The bullet passed through her head on the left side, front to back. Had the shooter used high performance, expanding defensive pistol ammunition like Cor-Bon or something similar, that woman's head would have been all over that parking lot, and she would have been dead before she hit the ground. Bill T.

 

[alluwant]

21x wow its still in retrospect a mess thats unbelievable

 

[fatmatt1981]

I bet that's gonna leave a mark!!

 

[turnandshoot4]

Do you really?

 

[sig shooter]

Most people have 10 fingers and 10 toes, there alone twenty spots on the body to be shot without losing life. Over 50 rounds fired and only 21 hits? I think some LEO's ought to be going to the range more often. Glad I didn't live downstream of that firefight.

And you really think that you could have done better while being shot at?

 

[Cherryspringer]

I would hope they were trying to immobilize him. Otherwise that's pathetic.

 

[forkliftdave]

Somebody has to win the lottery it was his turn. Just lucky! Next guy will die by getting tased

 

[rem338um]

9mm works if the operator does his JOB! Hi cap mags is not a replacement for skill..

 

[GeneralCarver]

Most people have 10 fingers and 10 toes, there alone twenty spots on the body to be shot without losing life. Over 50 rounds fired and only 21 hits? I think some LEO's ought to be going to the range more often. Glad I didn't live downstream of that firefight.

Yeah. For sure. I've heard before that the 'average' hit rate for police around the country in gun fights is about 1/3 the shots.

So, if your ever in a situation and the police show up shooting... RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!

 

[turnandshoot4]

Today, with all of the excellent expanding defensive pistol ammunition that is avaliable to all shooters and CCW holders, caliber is no longer a valid argument as to the effectiveness of a given round. The factor that will determine the killing power of a round is bullet construction, not diameter.

The best example I can give you of this was the recent shooting in Tuscon, Arizona of Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford's. Gifford's was shot in the head by a 9 MM round of FMJ Ball ammunition. The bullet passed through her head on the left side, front to back. Had the shooter used high performance, expanding defensive pistol ammunition like Cor-Bon or something similar, that woman's head would have been all over that parking lot, and she would have been dead before she hit the ground. Bill T.

Wrong. What I have seen is luck. You are lucky or you aren't. How much do you expect the cor bon to expand? We use VERY little of our brain. The breathing center being on top of the spinal cord. That being said a cor bon wouldn't have done much on the left side.



I've said this a million times. I'd rather have a .22 and ALOT of training over ANY round in ANY gun with no training. It's not like the movies. There are rarely 1 shot kills. Even in the head. The jaw bone alone can stop a .40 at point blank. I watched one dug out of a perfectly healthy jaw bone, well except for the fact the skin around the jaw had a hole in it. No broken teeth, no "jaw blown clean off", probibly won't even have a dental problem in the future.

Knives do much more damage than bullets anyway.

 

[Trevlan]

any bets on if he sues the NYPD and wins?

"Never once did you hear 'Freeze,'" Shariff Spencer told the New York Times' Trymaine Lee and Colin Moynihan. "Never once did you hear 'Stop.' Never once did you hear 'NYPD.'"

This is the part that pisses me off about the media. When police arrived at the scene, he was seen shooting and killing another man. Then he opened fire on the police.

But going back to the original topic at hand, I don't want to hijack your thread with discussions about media manipulation, the 9mm round is phenominal. I'm sure he would have survived 40 cal or 45acp rounds if they hit in the same spots. He got lucky 21 times. The 9mm round, is straight out of Harry potter with elemental effects added to the bullet damage. lol. It causes a phenominon known as 'Hydrostatic Shock'.

"A shock wave can be created when fluid is rapidly displaced by an explosive or projectile. Tissue behaves similarly enough to water that a sonic pressure wave can be created by a bullet impact, generating pressures in excess of 1,500 psi (10,000 kPa)."

 

[Driver]

It said that there were 6 people injured during the gun fight. 2 of witch were police officers I would assume that 1 would be the guy that now has 21 new body piercings. Who where the other 3?

 

[kingnereli]

Today, with all of the excellent expanding defensive pistol ammunition that is avaliable to all shooters and CCW holders, caliber is no longer a valid argument as to the effectiveness of a given round. The factor that will determine the killing power of a round is bullet construction, not diameter.

The best example I can give you of this was the recent shooting in Tuscon, Arizona of Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford's. Gifford's was shot in the head by a 9 MM round of FMJ Ball ammunition. The bullet passed through her head on the left side, front to back. Had the shooter used high performance, expanding defensive pistol ammunition like Cor-Bon or something similar, that woman's head would have been all over that parking lot, and she would have been dead before she hit the ground. Bill T.

That's the dumbest that I've ever heard. Wider bullets will always do more damage regardless of any advancement in bullet technology. The width disparity only increases with expansion because of cross sectional density. Modern hollow points expand more consistently and with greater weight retention than older designs. They aren't somehow deadlier because of their construction. A bullet needs to be as wide as possible with more than adequate penetration. 9mm fails on both criteria and can only realistically be considered marginal for self defense.

 

[townmarshal]

Man shot 21 times

As is oft said in another industry; location, location, location.

 

[Trevlan]

Your ignorance of firearms is rivaled only by your ignorance of physics.

Have you heard of MOMENTUM? Its what you meant to say when you wrote your quip amount inertia. Inertia is an objects resistance to changes in its state of motion. Since inertia has no VECTOR, its basically useless as far as ballistics are concerned. MOMENTUM on the other hand is quantifiable, and possesses a defined vector.

Take a look at your precious "tidbit" in real numbers:

22LR: 40gr @ 1200fps = 1.0 Newtons / second
44spl: 200gr @ 870fps = 3.4 Newtons / second
9mm: 147gr @ 1200fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
40sw: 180gr @ 985fps = 3.5 Newtons / second
45acp: 230gr @ 830fps = 3.7 Newtons / second
357 mag: 158gr @ 1450fps = 4.5 Newtons / second
44mag: 240gr @ 1,100fps = 5.2 Newtons / second

This ignores air resistance and loss of velocity that results. These numbers are snap shots at the muzzle. The poor BC of the 45 bullet would likely leave the 9mm with an advantage at any distance.

The actual difference in momentum between 9mm and 45 is 5% or less dependent on loading. In simpler words, a 9mm possesses 95% of the momentum of a 45 acp.

In short, your an ignorant TROLL. This is where I give you negative rep, and then add you to my ignore list.

In regards to damage, it's assumed a bigger round will hit the taget with more force. It's all too confusing, but It's exactly what you see here in your chart. Two bodies in motion traveling at the same velocity, the heavier body will always create the biggest impact. But that is not the case in ammunition. The velocity of the rounds are not uniform throughout the calibers. Knock down power is a myth, physics teaches us that every action has an equal and oposite reaction. The mass of a round isn't sufficient enough to blow someone away. And if it were possible, the shooter would be blown away as well.

The determining factor of a round's effectiveness is penetration and permanent cavity. How deep can a bullet penetrate to strike the vital organs and arteries to incapacitate a target?

It has been said that most 9mm rounds pass through and through, meaning, penetrating the entire body. That sounds like the ideal round to me, if penetration was the goal.

Too many factors affect incapacitation. Under the influence of drugs, predisposition to fall down, human defense mechanisms, awareness of being hit, etc. The list can go on forever. Only two shots incapacitate instantly, head shots and upper spinal chord hits.

Kinetic energy does not incapacitate, temporary cavities due to expansion do not incapacitate. Penetration, and hitting vital organs is what incapacitates. Bur, even if the heart is totally destroyed, there is still enough oxygen in the brain to offer 10-15 seconds for concious reaction, therefore, the person is still a threat.

So, ideally, you'll want a larger caliber to penetrate deep and hit those vital organs and arteries that a smaller caliber might miss. 9mm is loosely 30 cal, and a 45 cal round is almost half an inch wide. The difference is only 15%. I'd rather have the rounds that is garanteed to penetrate over the one that will leave a 15% bigger hole.

Not everyone is predispositioned to fall down. As proven by this news article. They need time to bleed out.

This would be the perfect round, in my opinion. A fairly large round, that penetrates deep, with minimal recoil. Now, a 50 cal round from an M8A21A will incapacite anyone even if it hits them in the arm.

After further research, I recant my chant about hydrostatic shock. If it doesn't happen everytime, it's not an attribute.

I prefer the 9mm round over the 40 cal S&W and the 45 Cal acp. But, if I had the opportunity, I would prefer the FN Five-Seven's 5.7x28mm round. With muzzle velocities in excees of 2000fps. Which very well will cause hydrostatic shock more frequently.

 

[Bendrx]

Going "through and through" is wasted energy, and a liability. I like me some .45s. Not saying you have to have that. A 9mm is still deadly, as is the .22. 2 ways to stop a person, one is to stop the nervous system, and the second is to drop the blood pressure. I'll take my 15% advantage, and the reduced risk of over penetration. From the charts I've ready, .45s will still go in one side and out the other. As has been said, shot placement is everything. I won't argue that if those same 21 rounds were 45s it would have been any different, but based on your figures I'd expect there is a reasonable chance that 15% less bullets would have matched it.

 

[JRPLANE]

21!!!

It is astounding that 21 miss placed shot would not render a person lifeless. Blood loss alone should have been enough.

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

Why does it matter if the guy lived or not after 21 shots? That would depend on who would get sued as a result, I would presuppose. He was probably rendered incapacitated after a few rounds that put him down on the ground. Did the article say how long it took to shoot 21 rounds into him? It was estimated that 50 shots were fired, so how many guys were shooting at one individual at once? Was the intended purpose to kill this guy or render him incapacitated to fire back?

I think they probably need some shooting skills...bunch of Nervous Nellies in the face of an actual situation and just started unloading mags.