State Capitol Rally

[dburkhead]

All of your ideas are great input, as I think this is what is needed...people who can give forthought to what actually needs to be done to make this happen.

I think what we are currently dealing with is the lack of participation in attempting to make this happen... I guess it could be looked at as too many armchair quarterbacks

You might want to consider that if you're having so much trouble getting people who are already disposed to support RKBA, then how much more difficult will it be to convince people who aren't already mostly in your corner?

"The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars..." and all that.

 

[USMC_0311]

Everybody slow down. I am trying to catch up and get my in. I keep on having to update. With as much time some of you spend writing your exposé’s you could have already marched on Washington. Why the bickering and smart ass comments? We are all on the same side. This thing is in discussion, planning, and is not set in stone. So take some time and be constructive so I can catch up.

 

[bwframe]

Yes, doing nothing is better than doing something negative.

I now realize that I can't help. I do wish you luck, but I'm outa this thread.

I too am insulted by those that would infer that I'm "doing nothing" by refusing support of this "rally," as it is proposed.

With all due respect to SirRealism, the difference between he and I is that I will not go away. I'll be damned if I will keep my mouth shut and let something happen that will paint gun owners as disorganized radical kooks.

 

[turnandshoot4]

So you are here to derail a rally?

 

[Pami]

After having read through the last four pages.. here are some questions to consider that might help get those of us who are hesitant to be a bit more active and positive...

Remember in grade school they taught you the 5 Ws? Who.. What.. Where.. When.. Why...

Why do you want to rally?
What is the purpose of the rally? (To relay a message....) So what is the message you want to relay?
Who would be the target audience of your message in both directions? Who do you want to send the message to AND from?
What would be the most effective way to get their attention, and more importantly their support?

Really think about those questions, and build some solid answers. Please don't say "read the last 21 pages of posts" because I *have* read them. Once you can effectively and solidly answer those questions, you can more confidently move on to the Where When and How.

 

[bwframe]

So you are here to derail a rally?

If "a rally" is 50-100 white guys, carrying EBRs, wearing camo pants and ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ t-shirts with INGO hats. If they are shouting;

To take back our Constitution and our Country from the greed and corruption that has plagued this Country for decades.

If they are saying that they represent me as a gun owner...

...then yes, my mission is to derail it.

 

[Metro 40]

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[SavageEagle]

Ok, first, let me say something before responding to all these posts. I've been busy and had to read alot in the last hour.

First, David, I do believe you seem to think of me as some stupid kid who wants to do something my way or no way at all. That's not what I'm trying to accomplish here. I DO understand the magnitude of what I am trying to accomplish and I DO understand that I can't just try to throw a rag-tag group together and get something done in a couple weeks. What I am trying to do is get something with some substance rolling before it's too late. Yes, it would be nice if we had a couple years to get this together but we DON'T have that time. We might not have a couple months before they reintroduce another AWB. There in lies our plight. We have to start getting this going now instead of sitting on our thumbs waiting for that great idea to present itself.

I may be young to some of you, I may seem a bit ignorant. Maybe I am. But I don't see any of you coming up with better ideas to secure our rights.

And by the way, NO, letters don't do a damn thing. I've written letters about MANY things, had many petitions signed about many things. They've never made a difference because they don't care about you or me or Joe Blow's letter written to them. It's just more work for their Sec's to do.

Again, I'm not trying to be the "Leader" of this movement. I'm just spearheading it and pushing it until a REAL leader steps up to the plate. If one does not do so, then I will do my best to be that person. I have no job but being a full-time father at the moment so I have time on my hands when I'm not chasing hellians or running errands or whatever comes my way.

So. Now that I've gotten that post out of the way, I feel like replying to Pami's post since it's right there...

Why? Because I can't serve my Country in the military. I can't be a politician. I want to make sure my kids have a free Country to live in. Oh, and so this Country doesn't get it's Bill of Rights stripped clean from the Constitution and we don't become any more slaves to the system than we already are. To Stop another AWB. <-- Main thing.

What? To stop "common sense" Gun Laws (I.E. AWB, Gun Registration, MicroStamping, etc.) and other Unconstitutional Laws such as the Fairness Doctrine. Message? We will not tolerate infringements on our Bill of Rights. Period.

Who? To all Politicians, From all Americans, with Love.

Where? State Capitols, across the Country, and for those who can't travel, gain local support to rally at a Major City's City Hall or Local Reps' Offices.

When? To be continued for further debate. Although all Rallies MUST be held on the SAME day at the SAME time. Hence "Cooridinated Nationwide State-to-State" Rallys'.

Those are my solid answers and there is a bit of debate needed. ESPECIALLY at 2AM. They seem to think we have all the time in the world to organize. Granted they had gained 1000+ membership in less than 2 months, they think starting slow and small is best. Personally that is stupid since the AWB is close to committee as it is. Very likely to be open in the Congress for debate soon after the open of next session. Do you really think we can wait to get our voices heard? I don't. But that's just my OPINION. If it comes true and it passes before we have the Rally's I won't say I told you so. I promise.

 

[SavageEagle]

Forget responding to all these posts. You all duke it out and come up with something better because obviously I'm an idiot and have no clue what I'm doing. You all know best, I know nothing, and this was a dumb idea.

Let me know when you have a better idea or the revolution comes.

 

[Metro 40]

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[Chefcook]

I think the idea that there will be coordinated rallies at every statehouse in the US on the same day, all planned within the next couple of months, is a pipe dream.

I have to agree. That is a pipe dream. But its a dam purdy one aint it...
It has already been tried in other instances.

For example with gasoline.
IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED THAT IF EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES DID NOT PURCHASE A DROP OF GASOLINE FOR ONE DAY AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME, THE OIL COMPANIES WOULD CHOKE ON THEIR STOCKPILES.
AT THE SAME TIME IT WOULD HIT THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY WITH A NET LOSS OF OVER 4.6 BILLION DOLLARS WHICH AFFECTS THE BOTTOM LINES OF THE OIL COMPANIES.

And look how little was asked just don't go to the pump for one day. Barely even an inconvenience with minimal planning. Well if you look you can find at least 100 different dates this was tried on, and it never amounted to anything. Imagine trying to get a large number of people organized to act at the same time on the same date in every state where they actually have to be somewhere specific. Major inconvenience.
I think the chances are better that I might hit the power ball this week.

However, If anything is organized in a reputable manner I will do my part in supporting it. Sometimes and usually when least expected one man can make a difference against pervasive odds...JC

 

[SavageEagle]

I posted reasons why a professionally executed rally is necessary to promote the right message, and you throw your hands up and basically say "to hell with it?" If you do not possess the constitution to accept criticism and apply it in a positive manner, then you do not belong in the realm of political activism.

and more effective than a 2 hour rally.

Just a couple of ideas.....you can take them or leave them. I think the idea that there will be coordinated rallies at every statehouse in the US on the same day, all planned within the next couple of months, is a pipe dream.

I'm not saying the hell with it. I'm saying what you and others seem to want me to say. That's all.

And I never said a 2 hour Rally. I was talking sun up to sun down or longer. And yes Rallies will gain the attention and will need follow ups. This is just a good step to accomplishing a goal. Period.

A pipe dream? So was fighting the British. Have you no optimisum? Sure it will be hard. Sure it's an inconvience. But what if it works? What if? God we could do this all day. Just as you can write letters all day. Does it ever accomplish anything? NO.

I'm not giving up. I'm giving you all time to wake up and smell the bull

 

[Chefcook]

I'm not saying the hell with it. I'm saying what you and others seem to want me to say. That's all.

And I never said a 2 hour Rally. I was talking sun up to sun down or longer. And yes Rallies will gain the attention and will need follow ups. This is just a good step to accomplishing a goal. Period.

A pipe dream? So was fighting the British. Have you no optimisum? Sure it will be hard. Sure it's an inconvience. But what if it works? What if? God we could do this all day. Just as you can write letters all day. Does it ever accomplish anything? NO.

I'm not giving up. I'm giving you all time to wake up and smell the bull

Like I said....However, If anything is organized in a reputable manner I will do my part in supporting it. Sometimes and usually when least expected one man can make a difference against pervasive odds...JC

 

[jedi]

SavageEagle,

I can't post over at 2AM (never activatedmy account) and frankly not sure I really want to. However the 2x4 idea I am interested in but the forum post talks about senidng $5 to some address yet does not give who the check should be made payable to.

Could you please get that info for me/us?

 

[dburkhead]

I'm not saying the hell with it. I'm saying what you and others seem to want me to say. That's all.

If you thank that's what I want you to say then you haven't been paying attention.

I've been trying to point out some of the issues you will need to deal with if you really want to have a successful event. In an ideal world you would actually deal with those issues and I would be satisfied and encouraged to be an enthusiastic supporter of your proposal.

Instead, you keep telling me why you think you don't need to deal with any of that and acting offended that I should bother to open my mouth.

In an earlier message you said that I thought you were a "little kid." Well, I don't. I do, however, think the following:
- you've bitten off more than you realize (whether it's more than you can chew remains to be seen. Hope not.)
- are overestimating the size of a rally you can get without a lot more preparation than you have indicated a willingness to put in
- are overestimating how effective a small rally is likely to be
- appear to be almost completely discounting the chance that this could backfire on you.

If you want to take offense at that, I cannot stop you. I am not making those statements to offend, however. I am making them in the hope that you will take them to heart and deal with the issues underlying them so that you can have a successful event.

 

[SavageEagle]

David, look, I'm not taking offense to things that you are saying against all this. I do not discount the chance that this could backfire. It could and I very well know it. But so could writing a letter. Or going to the range for that matter. You plan what to do in case it does happen but you try not to think about it until you go do the deed. There are too many things that MUST be done first before we start planning what will go on. Just as the Armed/Not Armed debate almost derailed this idea because it was brought up too early, surely worrying about the negitives ALL THE TIME and not focusing on how to make this work will derail it further.

I know what I have bitten off and maybe it is more than I chew. ALONE. But if we all work together on this then yes, we can chew and swallow and digest it together. It's that simple.

I think I have indicated on many occasions that I have and will put more than my fair share of time and effort into this. It was, after all, my idea.

A small rally will be dismissed by the media and not even register a blip in Washington. Unification of everyone in the USA is what will. No that may never happen, but what's wrong with trying to get as close as possible? I think a few million faces makes a damn big statement. Even if some nut does something stupid, if it happens in one or two places we have FIFTY states rallying with us. Even if the media tries to focus on the nutcase, we can just as easily shift their focus back to us with the right people in front of the cameras. Don't forget that.

I'm not offended by your statements and opinions about the Rally. I am offended, however, by statements, from ANYONE, who would put me down personally or attack me for my ideals. I am also offended by anyone who would derail any effort to help our cause because of their own personal fears. If you would derail this effort you are in the wrong group of people and you should be howling at the moon in Washington or Grazing the pasture Baaaaaaaaing with your own kind.

If you think this will hurt the cause, make it better. Don't derail it because you are afraid.

 

[SavageEagle]

SavageEagle,

I can't post over at 2AM (never activatedmy account) and frankly not sure I really want to. However the 2x4 idea I am interested in but the forum post talks about senidng $5 to some address yet does not give who the check should be made payable to.

Could you please get that info for me/us?

quoted per the OP of the thread. I will not be sending my money until they decide to become a real organization. I will not "just take their word" for it as WildWillie told me. Not until they show structure and some credibility.

Donations can be sent to RTKABA P.O. Box 911 Smithville, MO 64089. Order now and be sure to include your return address and we will get your 2x4 “enhancements” out in time for the first mailing come January 20th, 2009 and every week thereafter.

They also said make checks payable to RTKABA.

 

[SavageEagle]

Well, we have support of two more people. Thank you.

 

[dburkhead]

David, look, I'm not taking offense to things that you are saying against all this. I do not discount the chance that this could backfire. It could and I very well know it. But so could writing a letter. Or going to the range for that matter. You plan what to do in case it does happen but you try not to think about it until you go do the deed. There are too many things that MUST be done first before we start planning what will go on. Just as the Armed/Not Armed debate almost derailed this idea because it was brought up too early, surely worrying about the negitives ALL THE TIME and not focusing on how to make this work will derail it further.

I know what I have bitten off and maybe it is more than I chew. ALONE. But if we all work together on this then yes, we can chew and swallow and digest it together. It's that simple.

I think I have indicated on many occasions that I have and will put more than my fair share of time and effort into this. It was, after all, my idea.

A small rally will be dismissed by the media and not even register a blip in Washington. Unification of everyone in the USA is what will. No that may never happen, but what's wrong with trying to get as close as possible? I think a few million faces makes a damn big statement. Even if some nut does something stupid, if it happens in one or two places we have FIFTY states rallying with us. Even if the media tries to focus on the nutcase, we can just as easily shift their focus back to us with the right people in front of the cameras. Don't forget that.

I'm not offended by your statements and opinions about the Rally. I am offended, however, by statements, from ANYONE, who would put me down personally or attack me for my ideals. I am also offended by anyone who would derail any effort to help our cause because of their own personal fears. If you would derail this effort you are in the wrong group of people and you should be howling at the moon in Washington or Grazing the pasture Baaaaaaaaing with your own kind.

If you think this will hurt the cause, make it better. Don't derail it because you are afraid.

I will address your last paragraph first. I try very hard to maintain a reasonable tone on this board, but that last statement is highly offensive. Do you really think that the only reason a person might be concerned about what you are trying to do and how you are trying to go about it is because of fear? This kind of certainty in your own rightness and impugning the motives of people who disagree with you is a large portion of the cause of my concern.

You talk about fighting the British back in the Revolution? Well, Washington fought a very methodical campaign, often trading land for time (modern term "defense in depth"), until he got a good position from which to defeat the British army. He also got help from the French and had von Steuben to train his army. He did not just charge the British full of enthusiasm.

Really, I think you need to take a step back, and try to look at what you really want to accomplish with this. If you want to just say you've had a rally to support the 2nd amendment, that's one thing. But if you want to have an effective and powerful defense of the 2nd amendment, that's another.

Some suggestions (sorry, you're not going to find any quick fixes here. This is all long term stuff):

Take a look at historical political rallies from MLK to Klan rallies to the MMMs (both "Man" and "Mom") to Code Pink to the pro-life group protesting the offices at 86th and Georgetown in Indianapolis. Look at them in detail and try to determine why the ones that were successful were successful and why the ones that were not failed. Then try to find histories of the movements involved, biographies of the people involved, and study them, specifically looking to identify why they succeeded or failed. It is important while doing this to make a special effort to look for ideas that run counter to what you think is important for "successful" political activism otherwise one has a tendency to simply check off the things that one already agrees with--dangerous tunnel vision that.

Then, using what you've learned from all that, develop a plan. Find out what skills or attributes you lack that your plan requires for success and actively seek to fill those holes. If you need an organizer, find an organizer. If you need a fundraiser, find a fundraiser. People pledging support is great, and you can find a use for most anybody I expect, but you especially need to fill those holes and without filling them your plan goes nowhere.

Then move on your plan. Set goals, both final and intermediate.

As an example, if you're goal is a million gun owner march on Washington, then some goals might be to have local groups in each state capitol and major city in the country, then have a membership of at least 10 million people. Then have funding (possibly from donations from those 10 million people, possibly from "fund raisers"--hey, if you can find ways to make gun-related fund raisers, you can use your fund raising to further the political agenda--efficient that) to do things like charter busses to get your people from where they are to where they need to be and provide food to feed them during the event. The more painless you make it for people to show up, the more people are likely to actually show up. Perhaps you want something like wooden mock-guns as a symbolic gesture. Don't expect your marchers to provide them themselves (signs are a different matter--people like to make their own signs as it puts something of themselves into the event). You've got to have their acquisition as one of your goals. Oh, some of the people will likely get sick or injured in the course of the event. You'll need to be prepared to deal with that. Have people with first aid skills, or trained paramedics or doctors for that matter, stationed at strategic points throughout your group so no one can say "see how callous these gunowners are, one of theirs almost died of heatstroke and no one cared." Prepare to deal with hecklers (I recommend finding a copy of Eric Frank Russel's "Minor Ingredient" and reading it, memorizing it, for excellent treatment on how to deal with hecklers and for useful approaches toward dealing with a great deal more. Have as a goal to have all of your "front people" prepared to deal with the press. Find someone experienced in giving "hard" interviews to grill your people with hostile and entrapping questions so when it happens in front of the camera they aren't unprepared (just like you should train to use your gun tactically if you have it for defense). Have a goal to have "cheat sheets" provided in advance for all of your marchers to give them answers to the questions the press is most likely to ask and to give tips on gracefully redirect the questioner to one of your front people in case the press decides to avoid the official spokespeople and pigeonhole someone at "random" (what do I mean "in case"--of course they will, and they'll pick the person who presents your position in the worst possible light. Be prepared to deal with that). And so on and so on.

Or, if your goal is to get 20 people together and march in front of the State Capital, then simply grab a few of your friends, have them grab a few of theirs, and go downtown and march.

Or anything in between. But the closer you can get to that first example, even if it takes more time to get there, the more effective you are likely to be. The civil rights movement was able to accomplish great things, but it took a lot of organization and a lot of planning. I'd rather take a page from their book than from the handful of "protestors" screaming about Gulf I back when I was in college.

 

[SavageEagle]

I will address your last paragraph first. I try very hard to maintain a reasonable tone on this board, but that last statement is highly offensive. Do you really think that the only reason a person might be concerned about what you are trying to do and how you are trying to go about it is because of fear? This kind of certainty in your own rightness and impugning the motives of people who disagree with you is a large portion of the cause of my concern.

Ok, because I'm tired and sick of staring at computers tonight I will reply to this.

I'm sorry, kinda, that this offended you. I didnt mean to offend you as that was not my intention. BUT. If it does offend you and for the above stated reason, I'm a bit confused.

First, to derail this or any effort to strengthen our Constitution that doesn't involve violence when it's not necessary, well, what other possible reason could there be besides fear? Honestly. I have no ill will against those who disagree with me, or my ideas, just those who openly attack me for them. Of course to go behind my back and slam me is worse, but offended is offended.

I'm sorry but if you have issues with something CHANGE THINGS. Don't derail them because you FEAR it may hurt the cause. For God's sake I am not the decision maker here. We are all on the same level on this, we all have a fair say in how this goes. But the moment someone comes here and starts causing trouble, or starts attacking people personally, that's crossing a line. I never attacked you or anyone else. I just stated my belief and my observations. I don't mean to offend you or anyone else, I just call it like I see it. If I'm wrong, correct me, show me different, don't attack me. It's that simple.

You know, sometimes I think people just skim the thread. They don't read everything. Some people seem to skim posts altogether. I'm not singling anyone out as I do this to. Unless I plan on commenting or it's something important that is.

I will read the rest of your post tomorrow as I am too tired to read the rest. Taking apart two laptops and a desktop and fixing them take a toll on a guy when it's this late....

Good night. Errrr... Morning. Whatever.