State Capitol Rally

[dburkhead]

Why must it be organized by someone like the NRA or whatever? Do you really want this to be an NRA run event?

Because that's really going to be the only way you can get the event to be large enough to draw attention as more than "a few kooks."

No, grassroots campaigns always prevail over an organizations. It shows the PEOPLE have had enough.

My usual response to "always" type claims is: "name three."

"Grassroots movements" succeed, when they succeed, because they are well organized. Those rally's in the 50's and 60's didn't just happen spontaneously, there were large organizations backing them up. Having charismatic spokespeople like Dr. King was also a big help. But they weren't just a bunch of people getting together and deciding to march on Washington.

Of course there must be rules. Strict rules. Do you honestly think that "guys on a message board" are too stupid, or too ignorant to pull this off? Do you think that if the NRA or whoever put it together that some idiot wouldn't do something stupid? Even sending letters in a mass letter campaign all it would take is one ahole to send a fake anthrax letter with the message in it or even on the envelope and then all our letters are thrown out.

If you focus on the negitives and say what about the one person all the time then you might as well do nothing, hand over your guns and every other right, bend over, and put on a neon sign that says Open To The Public. Would you rather do SOMETHING, or NOTHING?

If you ignore the negatives you end up with a recipe for disaster. And, while I understand the urge to "do something" it is very important that the something you do not do more harm than good.

This is the kind of feedback I was looking for. Not just the "Yea, looks good." I was seeing. No offense to anyone, but Metro is right. Focus on the Constitution in General is needed. The guns a bit over the top. But it's a good start. President and Congress instead of Obama, etc.

Metro, if this isn't something you are willing to help with, I understand. Just understand that not much else will show the unity we need to show in order for them to take us seriously. Maybe then the NRA will get more done.

As I asked before, do you have a better idea?

If you want to have a "grassroots movement" the first thing you need to do is get organized. A lot of people, and I'm one of them, are leery of committing to what you're doing because they see a potential disaster in the making.

If you want to get something like this to work, the marchers (just considering the Indiana component) need to number in the thousands at least. (The media is very good at taking large groups and making them look like a few kooks, or taking a few kooks and making them look like a groundswell of public support--you need to be big enough that they can't successfully do that.)

That means you can't just post on a few web boards and expect people to flock to you. You need to hit the pavement, get people interested. You need to have your canvassers going out drumming up support. You need to have a central "clearing house" where people can contact you in a variety of ways to get questions answered in a timely fashion. You need to be able to put on a professional front so you don't scare away potential supporters.

All of that takes money. All of that takes time (which is just another way of saying money). Look, I bow to nobody on this board for being pro 2nd Amendment. However, there are only so many hours in the day and if I were to give time and effort to your particular bit of activism, I need to be convinced (and it's up to you to do the convincing) that it will be more effective than whatever else I might be doing with that time (whether it's writing letters to congrescritters, spreading information around in different places where I participate so more 2nd Amendment supporters get more and better information, writing "letters to the editor," writing responses to anti-gun screeds, earning a bit more money which I can donate to the NRA/GOA/JPFO/what have you, or whatever else). (Note that a lot of those things involve writing--I am a writer, been paid for it and everything. Words are a large part of my stock in trade, and I happen to think I'm rather good at it.)

My opinion, and you're welcome to it if you'd like, is that if you start focusing on getting organized and building a base now, you might be ready for something like your rally in a year or two. Large grassroots movements do not happen overnight. First thing you need to do is get yourself some experience cat herders because you're going to need them.

 

[SavageEagle]

I can't believe my ears, err, eyes. You honestly believe this can't be done by the common man? You honestly believe that this can't be done in months? I have people ready and willing to hit the dirt, NOW, to gain support.

Writing letters is great and I'm glad we all do it. But how many times have you actually recieved a letter that was written personally by the Rep? How do you know he even knows he recieved it let alone read it? I've seen the repeated, copied, canned responses. Therefore, IMNSHO, writing letters is just a big waste of time and trees. Do I still do it? Yes. Why? because it's all I can do by myself.

I've given my money to the NRA for years. I give when I can besides my dues. They didn't do sheet for the residents of New Orleans. Oh yea, they got their guns back for them. Every rusted, unusable, worthless heirloom and tool. I wouldn't even consider that a partial win. That's a slap in the face. And lets not forget how they comprimised on the AWB. Is this really the people you want to run this sort of event? The days of Charles Heston are long gone. They've went from outspoken and uncomprimising, to money hungry, Armani wearing suits not much better than our Reps themselves.

I've asked for help on this because I don't have the experiance. I have help from many people who do have the experiance. People who organize events for a living one in Indiana and one in PA so far. There are many people in 8 states on board. If you don't wish to help that's fine. But until I hear a better idea that will get something done I'm going to keep pushing this.

BTW, I'm not ignoring the negitives, but I'm not letting them stop me either. If you always think negitivly the world will consume you. If you want an example I will show you three. I won't mention them here in respect but I I can show you first hand where thinking negitivly will lead you.

I just can't believe I hear you guys talk so highly of your rights and how something needs to be done, but when someone gets an idea, and a very viable idea, you have the nerve to rip it to shreds and toss it aside. If you can't figure out a better way, help those with the ideas to make those ideas better. Not talk about how they are "doomed to fail".

 

[dburkhead]

I can't believe my ears, err, eyes. You honestly believe this can't be done by the common man? You honestly believe that this can't be done in months? I have people ready and willing to hit the dirt, NOW, to gain support.

How many?

Writing letters is great and I'm glad we all do it. But how many times have you actually recieved a letter that was written personally by the Rep? How do you know he even knows he recieved it let alone read it? I've seen the repeated, copied, canned responses. Therefore, IMNSHO, writing letters is just a big waste of time and trees. Do I still do it? Yes. Why? because it's all I can do by myself.

And how many times have you actually held a "rally" that was in the numbers that we have here?

Whether the response is written by the rep or not, that letter is considered as "x number votes." You're comparing my letter to your rally when you should be comparing my letter to one person at your rally. Frankly, if that one person at your rally looms larger than my letter, then your rally isn't big enough.

I've given my money to the NRA for years. I give when I can besides my dues. They didn't do sheet for the residents of New Orleans. Oh yea, they got their guns back for them. Every rusted, unusable, worthless heirloom and tool. I wouldn't even consider that a partial win. That's a slap in the face. And lets not forget how they comprimised on the AWB. Is this really the people you want to run this sort of event? The days of Charles Heston are long gone. They've went from outspoken and uncomprimising, to money hungry, Armani wearing suits not much better than our Reps themselves.

And what did you do for the residents of New Orleans? If you're going to criticize them for not doing enough, well, physician, heal thyself.

I've asked for help on this because I don't have the experiance. I have help from many people who do have the experiance. People who organize events for a living one in Indiana and one in PA so far. There are many people in 8 states on board. If you don't wish to help that's fine. But until I hear a better idea that will get something done I'm going to keep pushing this.

Pointing out problems and potential problems is helping you. That you blow off any such criticism is a large part of why I am so concerned about your events.

BTW, I'm not ignoring the negitives, but I'm not letting them stop me either. If you always think negitivly the world will consume you. If you want an example I will show you three. I won't mention them here in respect but I I can show you first hand where thinking negitivly will lead you.

Do you want some examples of excessive optimism?

I have seen very little showing that you are giving any serious consideration to possible problems. Wars aren't won by optimists charging heedlessly ahead regardless of consequences. Wars are won by pessimists who always make sure they have a deep foxhole handy, don't think it's wasteful to toss a grenade in before charging into the room, and don't think a round ensuring that a "dead" opponent actually is dead is a waste of ammunition.

In short, wars are won by guys who think Murphy was an optimist and giver very serious consideration and planning to all the things that could, and probably will, go wrong.

That's as true of political wars as of shooting wars.

I just can't believe I hear you guys talk so highly of your rights and how something needs to be done, but when someone gets an idea, and a very viable idea, you have the nerve to rip it to shreds and toss it aside. If you can't figure out a better way, help those with the ideas to make those ideas better. Not talk about how they are "doomed to fail".

I'm trying to help you "make those ideas better" but you don't seem to want to hear it.

There's a time for brainstorming and blue-sky dreaming. That's a time when one wants to avoid "negativity" and criticism. However, you've gone beyond that to actual trying to implement a specific plan. That stage is when you need to consider every possible problem you can imagine and be prepared to prevent or deal with it. Complaining about "negativity" does not help. Problems will arise whether folk point them out to you or not. At least folk pointing them out to you gives you a chance to prepare for the possibility--if you choose to do so.

Your response, right here, to some criticism of your plan is an example of why I've been viewing your rally discussion with some concern.

 

[ATF Consumer]

If you want to get something like this to work, the marchers (just considering the Indiana component) need to number in the thousands at least. (The media is very good at taking large groups and making them look like a few kooks, or taking a few kooks and making them look like a groundswell of public support--you need to be big enough that they can't successfully do that.)

That means you can't just post on a few web boards and expect people to flock to you. You need to hit the pavement, get people interested. You need to have your canvassers going out drumming up support. You need to have a central "clearing house" where people can contact you in a variety of ways to get questions answered in a timely fashion. You need to be able to put on a professional front so you don't scare away potential supporters.

All of that takes money. All of that takes time (which is just another way of saying money). Look, I bow to nobody on this board for being pro 2nd Amendment. However, there are only so many hours in the day and if I were to give time and effort to your particular bit of activism, I need to be convinced (and it's up to you to do the convincing) that it will be more effective than whatever else I might be doing with that time (whether it's writing letters to congrescritters, spreading information around in different places where I participate so more 2nd Amendment supporters get more and better information, writing "letters to the editor," writing responses to anti-gun screeds, earning a bit more money which I can donate to the NRA/GOA/JPFO/what have you, or whatever else). (Note that a lot of those things involve writing--I am a writer, been paid for it and everything. Words are a large part of my stock in trade, and I happen to think I'm rather good at it.)

My opinion, and you're welcome to it if you'd like, is that if you start focusing on getting organized and building a base now, you might be ready for something like your rally in a year or two. Large grassroots movements do not happen overnight. First thing you need to do is get yourself some experience cat herders because you're going to need them.

Are you volunteering, as it sounds as if we could use someone like yourself to have on board with the experience you could bring fourth.

Why does he have to convince you that it's worth your time? Doesn't any action you do to make your concerns known to the general public worth the effort?

That is exactly what we are attempting to do, build a base, and we would like you and all members of this thread as well as anyone else we can get on board to join us in this effort. Help us "herd the cats"

 

[SirRealism]

I've asked for help on this because I don't have the experiance. I have help from many people who do have the experiance. People who organize events for a living one in Indiana and one in PA so far. There are many people in 8 states on board. If you don't wish to help that's fine. But until I hear a better idea that will get something done I'm going to keep pushing this.

I just can't believe I hear you guys talk so highly of your rights and how something needs to be done, but when someone gets an idea, and a very viable idea, you have the nerve to rip it to shreds and toss it aside. If you can't figure out a better way, help those with the ideas to make those ideas better. Not talk about how they are "doomed to fail".

You cannot claim to need help because of a lack of experience, and then say that your ideas have been ripped to shreds and tossed aside... people are voicing very real concerns. I join the chorus in saying that I'm very skeptical because of the "something [anything] is better than nothing" approach. That just isn't true.

Your response, right here, to some criticism of your plan is an example of why I've been viewing your rally discussion with some concern.

Ditto.

 

[dburkhead]

Are you volunteering, as it sounds as if we could use someone like yourself to have on board with the experience you could bring fourth.

Why does he have to convince you that it's worth your time? Doesn't any action you do to make your concerns known to the general public worth the effort?

That is exactly what we are attempting to do, build a base, and we would like you and all members of this thread as well as anyone else we can get on board to join us in this effort. Help us "herd the cats"

There are simply more places I could spend my time than there is time to spend. Maybe I could help this project, and maybe my help could do some good. But the same can be said of anything I might spend my time on.

Here's the thing. If the people who've already signed up to this thing can't convince me that it's a better use of my time than other activities I might be involved in, then how in the world am I supposed to convince anyone else?

 

[SavageEagle]

1) How many?

2) And how many times have you actually held a "rally" that was in the numbers that we have here?

3) Whether the response is written by the rep or not, that letter is considered as "x number votes." You're comparing my letter to your rally when you should be comparing my letter to one person at your rally. Frankly, if that one person at your rally looms larger than my letter, then your rally isn't big enough.

4) And what did you do for the residents of New Orleans? If you're going to criticize them for not doing enough, well, physician, heal thyself.

5) Pointing out problems and potential problems is helping you. That you blow off any such criticism is a large part of why I am so concerned about your events.

There's a time for brainstorming and blue-sky dreaming. That's a time when one wants to avoid "negativity" and criticism. However, you've gone beyond that to actual trying to implement a specific plan. That stage is when you need to consider every possible problem you can imagine and be prepared to prevent or deal with it. Complaining about "negativity" does not help. Problems will arise whether folk point them out to you or not. At least folk pointing them out to you gives you a chance to prepare for the possibility--if you choose to do so.

Your response, right here, to some criticism of your plan is an example of why I've been viewing your rally discussion with some concern.

1. Please reread my posts. I have many.

2. Never held/organized a Rally larger than a few hundred Boy Scouts. And some small fund raisers and such.

3. I'm not comparing the two. I'm simply stating that letters have no effect whatsoever. If they did the bailouts wouldn't have passed. And now look, the floodgates have opened and the auto industry is getting one, governors are now asking for billions... Compare that to another AWB, Fairness Doctrine.... Letter writing campaigns do not work, even flooded by the millions.

4. I did a lot for New Orleans residents. I tried to load up my car with as much as I could to live off of for a couple months until FEMA was on tv showing them turning people away. Instead I collect canned goods, clothes, money, to send to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, NRA, etc. I helped Duke Energy collect cell phones for people of LA. aswell as for our soldiers overseas. I did everything within my power to help. Which is why I still have my Katrina Pin firmly fixed on my INGO hat. Americans helping Americans. What did you do?

5. I am open to critizium. I take it very well and I accept my mistakes and I have changed the plans for the Rally many times based on the ideas of others after much discussion. The armed debate. It could have been better discussed later than sooner but it was thrust to the forefront. After much debate and both sides pleading their case, the idea of comprimise was shaped in the form of empty holsters.

What bothers me about some people's posts is they concentrate on the "one guy" idea. I don't push the risks aside. I assess the risks. I weigh the risks. Did our Founders cancel their idea of the Boston Tea Party in fear someone would "rat" them out? Did Martin Luther King Jr. cancel his rallies because someone may shoot him? No, they worked around the obsticales. Over them, Under them, THROUGH them. I'm trying to do the same. I welcome peoples feedback, but not when they keep saying it's doomed to failure no matter what.

 

[SavageEagle]

I join the chorus in saying that I'm very skeptical because of the "something [anything] is better than nothing" approach. That just isn't true.

So you're saying that doing nothing IS better than doing something? I can't see anyone handing their guns to an ATF agent with a smile...

 

[ATF Consumer]

There are simply more places I could spend my time than there is time to spend. Maybe I could help this project, and maybe my help could do some good. But the same can be said of anything I might spend my time on.

Here's the thing. If the people who've already signed up to this thing can't convince me that it's a better use of my time than other activities I might be involved in, then how in the world am I supposed to convince anyone else?

Have you considered the fact that we may not have the best spokesperson on board yet? That we need someone that can speak the correct political lingo to do the job?

For me, knowing that I am contributing toward an effort to protect my constitutional rights is enough reason to be involved. To participate in this effort does not keep me from letter writing and other activities as well.
Heck, I own a small business that I already put in a good 12 hours a day, yet I am willing to spend time at this. I am a printer and will be donating flyers and other media to help spread the word. We need others to sacrifice a bit of their time and effort to help protect our rights we so vocally support.

 

[turnandshoot4]

How many?

I am

 

[SirRealism]

So you're saying that doing nothing IS better than doing something? I can't see anyone handing their guns to an ATF agent with a smile...

Yes, doing nothing is better than doing something negative.

I now realize that I can't help. I do wish you luck, but I'm outa this thread.

 

[turnandshoot4]

OK, I have been following this thread loosely, as I have told Savage that he has my support, just call on me.

Now would someone give me a few points about what is actually wrong with this idea? Please do not use politician talk (long winded response not to the point) as your point gets lost in the message.

Here please quote me and use my numbers.

1.

2.

3.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Yes, doing nothing is better than doing something negative.

I now realize that I can't help. I do wish you luck, but I'm outa this thread.

Why not help us turn this into something positive instead of giving up so quickly?

 

[Soundslikejosh]

OK, I have been following this thread loosely, as I have told Savage that he has my support, just call on me.

Now would someone give me a few points about what is actually wrong with this idea? Please do not use politician talk (long winded response not to the point) as your point gets lost in the message.

Here please quote me and use my numbers.

1.

2.

3.

While I understand that brevity can sometimes be best, don't demonize the person who tries to make a well thought-out argument. Your quoted statement above sounds pretty similar to "don't try to impress me with big words". Big words aren't impressive. If they impress you, that's your choice, but don't belittle a person for having a vocabulary. I apologize if I have misinterpreted you, but it seems to be headed that direction.

Well argued points, cohesive sentences, and a command of the engrish langrige will further your cause more than you can imagine.

 

[dburkhead]

1. Please reread my posts. I have many.

"Many" like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder.

2. Never held/organized a Rally larger than a few hundred Boy Scouts. And some small fund raisers and such.

And to be successful, a "rally" such as you are proposing needs to be at least an order of magnitude larger. There is a qualitative difference between organizing an event of a few thousand compared to a few hundred.

Look at the size of some of King's rallies/marches and consider what it took, even with them, to get changes made. And that was with a sympathetic press. With a hostile press, you'll need more behind you to have a positive effect. That takes a lot of planning and preparation and is not something that can be done in a few weeks, or even a few months, not starting from scratch. If you had a large organization, or group of organizations (as King had a number of churches and other organizations supporting him), then you might be able to pull something together quickly, but starting from zero? It's not negativity but realism to say that takes time and effort.

3. I'm not comparing the two. I'm simply stating that letters have no effect whatsoever. If they did the bailouts wouldn't have passed. And now look, the floodgates have opened and the auto industry is getting one, governors are now asking for billions... Compare that to another AWB, Fairness Doctrine.... Letter writing campaigns do not work, even flooded by the millions.

And you're wrong. That's like saying the Little Big Horn proves that fighting the Indians is a losing proposition. Even wars that are won generally have the lost battle along the way.

4. I did a lot for New Orleans residents. I tried to load up my car with as much as I could to live off of for a couple months until FEMA was on tv showing them turning people away. Instead I collect canned goods, clothes, money, to send to the Red Cross, Salvation Army, NRA, etc. I helped Duke Energy collect cell phones for people of LA. aswell as for our soldiers overseas. I did everything within my power to help. Which is why I still have my Katrina Pin firmly fixed on my INGO hat. Americans helping Americans. What did you do?

Apples and oranges. The subject was what the NRA did or did not do, so the topic is the taking of people's guns from them. What did you do about that that you feel so free to criticize the NRA on it?

5. I am open to critizium. I take it very well and I accept my mistakes and I have changed the plans for the Rally many times based on the ideas of others after much discussion. The armed debate. It could have been better discussed later than sooner but it was thrust to the forefront. After much debate and both sides pleading their case, the idea of comprimise was shaped in the form of empty holsters.

I'm sorry, but your current posts make me somewhat skeptical of that claim.

What bothers me about some people's posts is they concentrate on the "one guy" idea. I don't push the risks aside. I assess the risks. I weigh the risks. Did our Founders cancel their idea of the Boston Tea Party in fear someone would "rat" them out? Did Martin Luther King Jr. cancel his rallies because someone may shoot him? No, they worked around the obsticales. Over them, Under them, THROUGH them. I'm trying to do the same. I welcome peoples feedback, but not when they keep saying it's doomed to failure no matter what.

"Rah, rah, let's win one for the gipper" rhetoric is not dealing with the problems. Do you think the Committees of Correspondence did not have plans on dealing with folk selling them out to the British Loyalists? Do you think King got rallies of that size because of a few people discussing things at the pub (the functional equivalent of web forums at that time)?

I'm not saying "it's doomed to failure no matter what." I'm saying "you need a lot more organization, a lot more preparation, and a lot more planning to make a successful event. And even then, you don't want just one event. You need a series of events, not just across the nation but over time, so that you can show that the support is sustained, not just something that will quickly blow over.

Some of your responses here really seem to indicate that, however much you may think you do, you don't understand the magnitude of what you are trying to do and what's involved in it.

Some thoughts:
- Even a 10% turnout from people who would support you would be remarkably high. That's not "negativity" that's realistic. Most people have lives. They can't just drop everything at a whim to go off to a rally--and, to be blunt, many of the ones who can are not folk you want to be the "public face." You need to keep your expectations realistic and build a plan that can work from realistic expectations, not high hopes.

- Working from that, even if every member of ingunowners was behind your program, you wouldn't get enough of a turnout from that source alone to make much of an impression. And how many more can you really expect to get (looking just at the Indiana event now) from other online fora? That 10% figure is for people local.

- So, since you cannot get enough to make a large enough event to produce the impression of "groundswell" rather than "lunatics" from online forums you must draw in large numbers of people from outside the online community. What's your plan for that? Do you have mailing lists? (How much attention do you pay to mailings calling for attendence at political rallies?) Do you have canvassers lined up to go door to door to try to draw people in? You know, some subdivisions are posted "no soliciting" don't you? While, IME, that's largely ignored, you can't guarantee that it always will be. Do you have plans to deal with the any of your volunteers (I'm presuming you don't have a paid staff) getting arrested? maybe the charges won't stick, but trust me, a night in the county lockup is no fun.

- Have you got a list of celebrities to approach about endorsements? Are you networking to find "someone who knows someone" who might get you the initial introduction to the celebrity who might endorse your proposal--maybe mention it next time they're on a talk show, something like that? "Six degrees of separation" isn't just a movie or a game. You can use it.

- Have you compiled a list of "friendly" politicians who might help with such a project. If not, why not. Your tax dollars at work. Put them to work for us for a change.

I could go on and on. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be first on the list for planning an event like this. Things like flyers, carry or not (and I note that you did say you didn't plan to bring that up so soon, but instead of getting into it, you really should have said "that needs to be decided later, we have more fundamental issues to resolve first"), even venue, are all late-game issues. What I've seen here is arguing over slate or tar tiles when the foundation hasn't even been poured yet.

Now that you've read this far, I would recommend you go back and re-read it while reminding yourself that I'm not trying to shut you down. I'm. Trying. To. Help. You.

 

[turnandshoot4]

While I understand that brevity can sometimes be best, don't demonize the person who tries to make a well thought-out argument. Your quoted statement above sounds pretty similar to "don't try to impress me with big words". Big words aren't impressive. If they impress you, that's your choice, but don't belittle a person for having a vocabulary. I apologize if I have misinterpreted you, but it seems to be headed that direction.

Well argued points, cohesive sentences, and a command of the engrish langrige will further your cause more than you can imagine.

Thanks for the response. The post wasn't about using big words or anything like that. This is straying away from the main topic and becoming a personal attack. Anymore I can't even decipher what the problem is with marching on the capital. This thread has become an attack on the OP. Weather or not he is a good "leader" or "organizer". What does this have to do with making a march on the state capital better? How is this constructive criticism? Why is it the OP's duty to convert you?

So I am trying to figure out WHY people think this is a bad idea.

For example:

1. Guns are bad.

2. Fighting for our rights is too much work.

3. I have a much better idea, here it is.



This is no way an attack at you, you just responded.

 

[dburkhead]

Thanks for the response. The post wasn't about using big words or anything like that. This is straying away from the main topic and becoming a personal attack. Anymore I can't even decipher what the problem is with marching on the capital. This thread has become an attack on the OP. Weather or not he is a good "leader" or "organizer". What does this have to do with making a march on the state capital better? How is this constructive criticism? Why is it the OP's duty to convert you?

So I am trying to figure out WHY people think this is a bad idea.

For example:

1. Guns are bad.

2. Fighting for our rights is too much work.

3. I have a much better idea, here it is.



This is no way an attack at you, you just responded.

1. A small rally, with only a handful of people attending, looks like a few kooks, not a popular protest.

2. A hostile media can exaggerate that appearence.

3. Creating the large rallies that will demonstrate strong popular support takes a lot of preparation, planning, and organization

4. I haven't been seeing any of that prior preparation (the seven "p's": proper prior planning prevents p!ss poor performance) for this proposed event.

Aside: pointing out that the preparation does not appear to be being done and that responses given so far suggest that the front people on this don't appear to recognize the magnitude of the task is not a personal attack.

Incidentally, if it were a personal attack, I would have to be attacking myself because I am quite aware that I don't have the skillset for organizing something like this. My skill is with words and with science (both are avocations and I've been paid for both--just happen to get paid more for one than for the other). I am not an organizer, to be honest, not even of my own affairs. I recognize some of the tasks required and can recognize the skill when I need it, but it's not my own skill.

 

[turnandshoot4]

Even if it is a few people, we can still make our voice heard. A few people in the public talking about guns is far better than many people on a gun board talking about guns. There is alot of nodding around here and not alot of learning. If I reach 1 person on the street I will have accomplished something.

Perhaps we can just refuse to make a comment if no one steps up to talk to the media.

I am not very worried about this being a large rally. If we get all INGO members there, that won't be HUGE. If women and african american men can organize and be civilized, so can we.

I'm not going to er, type for Savage but I think this is still in the who is in, who is out, what should we do portion. Maybe we could march on the weekend of an indy gun show? Maybe that Friday?

Due to the fact that tone can't be heard though type you must not be attacking the OP. This one thing I continually take for granted. My mistake

 

[ATF Consumer]

"Many" like "beauty" is in the eye of the beholder.



And to be successful, a "rally" such as you are proposing needs to be at least an order of magnitude larger. There is a qualitative difference between organizing an event of a few thousand compared to a few hundred.

Look at the size of some of King's rallies/marches and consider what it took, even with them, to get changes made. And that was with a sympathetic press. With a hostile press, you'll need more behind you to have a positive effect. That takes a lot of planning and preparation and is not something that can be done in a few weeks, or even a few months, not starting from scratch. If you had a large organization, or group of organizations (as King had a number of churches and other organizations supporting him), then you might be able to pull something together quickly, but starting from zero? It's not negativity but realism to say that takes time and effort.



And you're wrong. That's like saying the Little Big Horn proves that fighting the Indians is a losing proposition. Even wars that are won generally have the lost battle along the way.



Apples and oranges. The subject was what the NRA did or did not do, so the topic is the taking of people's guns from them. What did you do about that that you feel so free to criticize the NRA on it?



I'm sorry, but your current posts make me somewhat skeptical of that claim.



"Rah, rah, let's win one for the gipper" rhetoric is not dealing with the problems. Do you think the Committees of Correspondence did not have plans on dealing with folk selling them out to the British Loyalists? Do you think King got rallies of that size because of a few people discussing things at the pub (the functional equivalent of web forums at that time)?

I'm not saying "it's doomed to failure no matter what." I'm saying "you need a lot more organization, a lot more preparation, and a lot more planning to make a successful event. And even then, you don't want just one event. You need a series of events, not just across the nation but over time, so that you can show that the support is sustained, not just something that will quickly blow over.

Some of your responses here really seem to indicate that, however much you may think you do, you don't understand the magnitude of what you are trying to do and what's involved in it.

Some thoughts:
- Even a 10% turnout from people who would support you would be remarkably high. That's not "negativity" that's realistic. Most people have lives. They can't just drop everything at a whim to go off to a rally--and, to be blunt, many of the ones who can are not folk you want to be the "public face." You need to keep your expectations realistic and build a plan that can work from realistic expectations, not high hopes.

- Working from that, even if every member of ingunowners was behind your program, you wouldn't get enough of a turnout from that source alone to make much of an impression. And how many more can you really expect to get (looking just at the Indiana event now) from other online fora? That 10% figure is for people local.

- So, since you cannot get enough to make a large enough event to produce the impression of "groundswell" rather than "lunatics" from online forums you must draw in large numbers of people from outside the online community. What's your plan for that? Do you have mailing lists? (How much attention do you pay to mailings calling for attendence at political rallies?) Do you have canvassers lined up to go door to door to try to draw people in? You know, some subdivisions are posted "no soliciting" don't you? While, IME, that's largely ignored, you can't guarantee that it always will be. Do you have plans to deal with the any of your volunteers (I'm presuming you don't have a paid staff) getting arrested? maybe the charges won't stick, but trust me, a night in the county lockup is no fun.

- Have you got a list of celebrities to approach about endorsements? Are you networking to find "someone who knows someone" who might get you the initial introduction to the celebrity who might endorse your proposal--maybe mention it next time they're on a talk show, something like that? "Six degrees of separation" isn't just a movie or a game. You can use it.

- Have you compiled a list of "friendly" politicians who might help with such a project. If not, why not. Your tax dollars at work. Put them to work for us for a change.

I could go on and on. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be first on the list for planning an event like this. Things like flyers, carry or not (and I note that you did say you didn't plan to bring that up so soon, but instead of getting into it, you really should have said "that needs to be decided later, we have more fundamental issues to resolve first"), even venue, are all late-game issues. What I've seen here is arguing over slate or tar tiles when the foundation hasn't even been poured yet.

Now that you've read this far, I would recommend you go back and re-read it while reminding yourself that I'm not trying to shut you down. I'm. Trying. To. Help. You.

All of your ideas are great input, as I think this is what is needed...people who can give forthought to what actually needs to be done to make this happen.

I think what we are currently dealing with is the lack of participation in attempting to make this happen... I guess it could be looked at as too many armchair quarterbacks

 

[jedi]

Ohh I think we got some new smileys but not sure.
However after reading the last few post I'm in need of a .

SavageEagle (SE) has taken the 'lead' on keeping us up to date on this board and 2AM for us in regards to state rallies. So thus he is pushing for the state rally here from us since INGO.com *is* the leading Indiana Gun Board (at least from how some members see it).

SE from the beginning has been asking for help as he (i think SE is a he, sorry if you are a girl) has advised that he does not have the experience to do all this by himself.

SE don't take it to heart or personally that even our OWN are 'attacking you' (from your point of view and perhaps others) or are saying stuff that they can't be part of this. That is okay. Like I told you before we have gun owners that ACTUALLY VOTED FOR BO! The world is just a messed up place but that should not defeat you. This is going to be a very hard, long, and rough battle and it is going to take time, sweat, and determination. Don't give up. Never stop fighting. It's much better to fight and die fight for what you believe in then to do nothing or worse turn your back on what you believe in. For those that do the latter let the LORD sort them out when judgement day comes.

So what are we missing at this point?

I do like the idea that 2AM is going to be sending 2x4 to Congress. Granted I would of liked something else but that may work better than a letter. At least a 2x4 they can't so easly get rid of as oppose to just a ton of letters.

In terms of the state rally yes we have a ton of work to do and perhas we need to relook at this with our state level eyes and focus it on a bit smaller scale. How many reps do we have for Indiana? (Don't google it but it's 11). Of those 11 how many are pro-gun?

Perhaps we need to start with some small "mini-rallies/meetings" with those that we know will help us. Have a visit with them first to discuss our worries and how they can help. At the same time, meet with our non-pro-2AM ones and let them know that we are concerned on how they will vote in future bills based on past bills. No more letters but a meeting. These "small rallies/meeting" don't require the huge logistics/cost/organiztion up front since we are talking smaller numbers. Once we have met with the 11 we can then focus that group one our two lovely senators. By that point we will have some 'experience' under our belt and have some numbers that our senators would look at.

What are we missing?
PR people who are "softern" spoken. SE knows that his 'people skills' are not always the best but he has the HEART AND SOUL and for that you must give him credit.