Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[Rob377]

Ok I guess we're measuring differently then. Now your times make more sense.

I was talking about time between when the gun is ready (full magazine in place) to when its ready again (partial is gone and fresh is in its place). Meaning the time it took for the exchange to take place.

Shot-to-shot times don't make much sense in this case IMO, as you wouldn't do a tactical reload immediately after firing a shot, and then quickly fire again.

Shot to shot is device for measuring without a beep which gets into reaction time or using someone hitting a start button on a stopwatch when they think they see you starting the reload, which isn't all that precise.

You could do it that way, with a manually started stop watch but the times would have a fudge factor of a .5 second or so. That's how I measured Travis', time I saw his hand go for the mag to the time it looked like he was ready to shoot again, not exactly precision work, but ballparking it.

Shot timers record the time of each shot, so it's a convenient way to do it without the fudge factor. The 1st shot is just the way of starting the cloack. shoot and immediately do a tac load, and it'll tell you how long it takes you from the time you're able to shoot again. That measure how long it takes for you to do the mag juggling and get back on target and get the shot off. It'll be about 3-5 seconds with a fair amount of practice. Longer without.

Compare that to the speed reload times. Those times are from when the gun goes bang the first time to bang the second time. So when RVB posted his .99, that's what that time from the instant the first shot went off to the instant the 2nd did. So we can say that it took him less than a second to get the old mag out, get the new one in, get the sights back on target and fire.

It's not an insignificant difference.

 

[esrice]

That still seems like an odd and unrealistic way to measure tactical reloads.

It seems to me that if one asks "How fast should I perform a tactical reload?", the answer should be "as fast as you can without dropping a magazine". This would then also cover those times when you're doing it one handed while crouched behind cover-- obviously you aren't going to be doing THAT in 1.5 seconds.

 

[GBuck]

That still seems like an odd and unrealistic way to measure tactical reloads.

It seems to me that if one asks "How fast should I perform a tactical reload?", the answer should be "as fast as you can without dropping a magazine".

Unless you're talking to someone that is scored solely (beyond the basics) on speed.

 

[Rob377]

That still seems like an odd and unrealistic way to measure tactical reloads.

It seems to me that if one asks "How fast should I perform a tactical reload?", the answer should be "as fast as you can without dropping a magazine".

How so? It's telling you exactly how long it takes you to grab the mag, get it to the gun, do the switch, and put another shot on target. In short, its telling you how long it takes to do a tac reload and have the gun back in action.

Maybe a silly question...but have you ever used a shot timer? Huge value in training.

 

[esrice]

How so? It's telling you exactly how long it takes you to grab the mag, get it to the gun, do the switch, and put another shot on target. In short, its telling you how long it takes to do a tac reload and have the gun back in action.

I agree that its telling me something. And I agree that I could compare my something to someone else's something.

I just don't think that particular something tells me the whole story.

Maybe a silly question...but have you ever used a shot timer? Huge value in training.

I have, but I don't use one regularly.

 

[Rob377]

Unless you're talking to someone that is scored solely (beyond the basics) on speed.

I'm also scored on style points.

I won Production division at today's steel match just because of this awesome hat. BIG Style points.

 

[Rob377]

I agree that its telling me something. And I agree that I could compare my something to someone else's something.

I just don't think that particular something tells me the whole story.



I have, but I don't use one regularly.

You gotta better metric?

How cool it looks maybe?

 

[esrice]

You gotta better metric?

For individual skillsets, speed is one metric, and often a good one. But you reach a certain point of diminishing returns where shaving off tenths of a second isn't all that important. I understand that this is different in some shooting competitions where speed is the main objective, and the "best" separate themselves by those tenths.

In the world of Tactical Timmy, testing and metrics have been historically difficult to define. I touched on that in my recent thread about Training, Practice, and Testing.

Other lesser-definable metrics I consider are efficiency, consistency, and practicality. These are not as purely measurable as speed, but are often calculated as pass/fail or used as technique-to-technique comparisons.

How cool it looks maybe?

Let the record show that Rob377 was indeed the one to first to mention style points.

 

[Rob377]

For individual skillsets, speed is one metric, and often a good one. But you reach a certain point of diminishing returns where shaving off tenths of a second isn't all that important. I understand that this is different in some shooting competitions where speed is the main objective, and the "best" separate themselves by those tenths.

In the world of Tactical Timmy, testing and metrics have been historically difficult to define. I touched on that in my recent thread about Training, Practice, and Testing.

Other lesser-definable metrics I consider are efficiency, consistency, and practicality. These are not as purely measurable as speed, but are often calculated as pass/fail or used as technique-to-technique comparisons.



Let the record show that Rob377 was indeed the one to first to mention style points.

C'mon, tell me my CZ boonie hat isn't awesome. You know it is.

 

[esrice]

C'mon, tell me my CZ boonie hat isn't awesome. You know it is.

It actually says CZ? Bonus points.

 

[Rob377]

It actually says CZ? Bonus points.

The ability to properly accessorize is what separates us from the animals. (shamelessly plagiarized from BillD)

 

[rvb]

Shot to shot times. (same as the reload drill in all the vids posted)

From the time you fire the last shot, do the reload, and can put another round on target.

For a speed reload, we've seen people do it in less than a second. For a tactical reload, that time will be in the ballpark of 3-5 seconds.

Rob, if we're talking about a tac load at the gun, why would it take an additional 2-4 seconds to just swap mags (assuming 1 sec for a speed load)? At that point the gun is topped off and READY for getting back on the trigger. The old mag can be stowed or dropped. Shot to shot is les important for these reloads.

-rvb

 

[U.S. Patriot]

To the front. That's how I was trained to do so in the service. All you have to do is draw, rotate the mag vertically, and you are good to go.

 

[Rob377]

Rob, if we're talking about a tac load at the gun, why would it take an additional 2-4 seconds to just swap mags (assuming 1 sec for a speed load)? At that point the gun is topped off and READY for getting back on the trigger. The old mag can be stowed or dropped. Shot to shot is les important for these reloads.

-rvb

But the juggling of mags take longer to get in the the gun, dropping the mag you'd planned to hold on to takes time, if your eyes are down on your pocket, like Travis Haley's were, getting them back up, that all takes extra time. Think about it. You've get to grab a new mag, get it to the gun, THEN release the old one. Whereas with the speed reload, these things are happening simultaneously. Doing things in parallel vs in series, as Paul Gomez might say. Thats .5-.75 right there. A bit slower getting the mag in and seated, another .5 or so. It adds up.

Shot to shot is still an appropriate metric. How fast can you reload and get a shot back on target, with all that extra stuff that has to happen?

A good test would be to run a series of tac reloads, with an observer, at random points, yelling "he's back up!" to simulate the "oh ****" moment and see how long those take compared to speed reloads. Based on me, I'd say 2-4 extra seconds. You'll probably be a bit faster, I'm sure. But I think the larger point remains - the tac reload will take longer to get back on target if you need to.

 

[esrice]

But I think the larger point remains - the tac reload will take longer to get back on target if you need to.

I don't think anyone's arguing that a speed reload is faster than a tactical reload. Even their names imply that.

But they are used under different circumstances. One is used when speed is important. The other is used when speed isn't (as) important, and the tactical advantage of topping off and retaining rounds is.

 

[David Rose]

I don't think anyone's arguing that a speed reload is faster than a tactical reload. Even their names imply that.

But they are used under different circumstances. One is used when speed is important. The other is used when speed isn't (as) important, and the tactical advantage of topping off and retaining rounds is.

This pretty much sums it up. Thats why I've alway considered the aspects of IDPA where they want you to do things like tac reloads and "slicing the pie" on the clock silly. There are things worth learning to do fast and there are things that need to be done in a deliberate manner. It is important to know the difference.

 

[Rob377]

I don't think anyone's arguing that a speed reload is faster than a tactical reload. Even their names imply that.

But they are used under different circumstances. One is used when speed is important. The other is used when speed isn't (as) important, and the tactical advantage of topping off and retaining rounds is.

There's the rub. As your hypo earlier with the bad guy popping up shows, in a fluid and dynamic situation, it can go from a situation where speed isn't as important to one in which it is VERY important in an instant.

If no "oh ****" moment materializes, you can always pick up the mag you dropped doing the speed reload.

Be ready faster for the "he's back up"/bad guy's minions come running to his aid/whatever, and keep your extra rounds. Best of both. (oh, and you also get "commonality" of training reload techniques)

And to bring it full circle, if we're talking about situations that speed doesn't really matter, than it won't matter if bullets are forward, backward, or randomly facing all directions bouncing around in your tactical man purse.

 

[Rob377]

Some interesting reading on the "tactical" reload.

Tactical Reload: Trick or Reality?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

It all depends on the situation. When we qualified in the service, we did both a speed reload and a tactical reload in different strings of fire. A speed reload is used when you empty a mag of it's ammunition during an engagement. Best done behind cover if you can find some. The tactical reload is best used after engaging a threat, scan, then top off your ammo. You never assume the fight is over. Insert a full mag, there is no reason not to.

 

[esrice]

Some interesting reading on the "tactical" reload.

Tactical Reload: Trick or Reality?

I don't currently have time to read the entire article (I most certainly will when I do have time), but I LOL'd at the very first sentence.

Back with more commentary later.