Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[TheAutomator]

Not sure how to describe with words. Somebody tell me how to post video here and I will show you first-hand. We have video clips from training I can post up if I figure out how to do so.

If you have the clips on your computer, go to Youtube, make an account, and click the 'upload a video' button and follow the steps. It's pretty easy.

After that, just paste the link that it gives you when the upload is complete into the reply box on here.

And for what very, very little it is worth, bullets forward, forget a tactical reload. If I have time to juggle mags in my hand, I probably have time to bend over and pick up a partially loaded magazine off the ground after I drop it.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

Thank you, but NO.
My training has led me to the understanding that standing still makes me a stationary target. Much more likely to be killed as a good target than for running out of ammo.

Who said anything about doing this standing still? Rule #1 in a gunfight is MOVE. There is no reason you can't do a tactical reload (IF needed) while on the move. Again, this is not a super complex skill. It's a mag change. Nothing more, nothing less. And ideally, you are doing this from COVER anyways.

This thread is confusing because its really about two things: 1) techinique and 2) tactics.

 

[rvb]

... we want the index when we reload to position the mag to effortlessly enter the grip without any further adjustment.

Yeah? And?

and ... I don't think bullets backwards accomplishes that.

-rvb

 

[bwframe]

Who said anything about doing this standing still? Rule #1 in a gunfight is MOVE. There is no reason you can't do a tactical reload (IF needed) while on the move...

Got any video of this? I'd love to see to learn if this is for me.
Thanks!

 

[esrice]

Got any video of this? I'd love to see to learn if this is for me.

Paul Gomez can weigh in.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8[/ame]

I personally employ the second technique that he refers to. I've had good success with it, moving or otherwise. Never tried it in a flat-out sprint.

 

[cedartop]

Once again I will have to admit Paul teaches it the way we do, right down to the terminology. Viewing Bob Vogel's recent DVD, he teaches it the same way. He knows a thing or three about self-defense and comp shooting.

 

[rvb]

Paul Gomez can weigh in.



I personally employ the second technique that he refers to. I've had good success with it, moving or otherwise. Never tried it in a flat-out sprint.

my method is similar to the second he shows, but I switch the mags. I want the new mag to have the most secure hold (between the thumb and index finger), and I don't want the old mag possibly blocking my view of the mag well (because your index finger is no longer in the right place to index the mag, so you HAVE to look it in).

Stowing the old mag while moving (really moving, not walking slowly) is not easy. I don't like getting the gun loaded to be dependent on that happening first.



-rvb

 

[Rob377]

Paul Gomez can weigh in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8

I personally employ the second technique that he refers to. I've had good success with it, moving or otherwise. Never tried it in a flat-out sprint.

Good stuff. He hits a lot of the points I think are important.
1. the tac reload is designed for single stacks and is somewhat demanding dexterity wise for double stacks. A point to keep in mind, especially if one subscribe to the the "stress makes you a complete fumble thumbs" theory.

2. Look at the metric he's using to measure effectiveness, in that the "swap time" (as suggested by esrice) as the relevant measure (at about 3:13+) is not the best one.

The only disagreement I have, is how he discounts the importance the amount of time you're left with a single shot weapon. Because the BG can get back up, or his friend can show up or any number of other things can happen in that window.

And I think RVB raises an additional worthwhile point - stowing that mag while moving at any kind of respectable pace is not an especially easy task.

Sooooo, we're left with the speed reload. It's faster, easier (under stress or otherwise), and as an added bonus, it's "commonality" in technique.

Moreover, if you've fired a bunch from the first mag, and then 14-19 more from the second (assuming double stack; if your carrying a single, you really need more than 1 spare), and THEN still need whatever was left in the 1st, and you're still alive against the squad sized element you just took on, you've got God himself on your side. Don't sweat it.

 

[bwframe]

Paul Gomez can weigh in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2XDcfz9_l8I personally employ the second technique that he refers to. I've had good success with it, moving or otherwise. Never tried it in a flat-out sprint.

Thanks Evan. I really like Paul's stuff. He kind of confirms my suspicions.

Another thing I have a question about is the seemingly necessary taking of the eyes off of the threat and surroundings to capture the partial mag/insert the full one. The same thing over again to stow the partial. It appears that this would be quite difficult to master while moving?

When I change mags I am eyes on the target or the direction I am moving to the target. My mags are "looked in" with peripheral vision just below the target. Mag seats, gun rotates, sights are on the target.

 

[David Rose]

I think we are missing the context of the technique again. If I'm running flat out I'm probably not doing anything but running. The question "is it awkward while running flat out?" does not really tell you everything about a techniques usefulness. Can you think of a situation where shooting from prone would be usefull? (yes) Is it easy to do while running? (no)
Also the idea that if its not the most important thing you can teach than its useless. Is this on the short list if I have 10 minutes or for that matter 1 day to train a new shooter? (no)

Is this a technique that is a replacement for the emergency reload? (no)

It seems that people want to prove the tac reload can't work by putting it in contexts that it was never meant to work in and then say look at this ridiculous idea.

Some people own shoes, but when I try to put the shoes on my head they don't work. What kind of morons own shoes.

 

[iChokePeople]

Removed, censored.

 

[esrice]

Lots of great discussion and points made while I was gone!

It seems that people want to prove the tac reload can't work by putting it in contexts that it was never meant to work in and then say look at this ridiculous idea.

Agreed. It has a very specific time and place.

I like the way Gomez separates them into "proactive" and "reactive" reloads.

 

[esrice]

Some interesting reading on the "tactical" reload.

Tactical Reload: Trick or Reality?

Ok, as promised I did read the article. Overall a good read, but I disagree with some of his premise.

First, most of what he's referring to is a technique as it relates to a shooting sport (IDPA). As such, I can see where some issues could arise from its use. But the way its used there isn't exactly the way I use it.

Second, he talks about how much time it takes to perform a tactical reload, but then advocates picking up a dropped magazine, which is neither safe, nor wise.

Third, he mentions having to take your eyes off the threat to perform the tactical reload. Maybe for someone new to the technique, but my head is on a swivel during time I'm topping off and performing a tactical reload. And then again he advocates picking up a dropped magazine, which not only causes your eyes to come off any potential threats, but also your general focus.

I think the article is missing a few key points in regards to tactical reloads-- you don't do them when speed is the priority, you don't do them in the middle of an active gunfight, and they aren't so complex as to be impossible to perform under stress.

 

[esrice]

Many of you guys know that I've taken several force-on-force courses this year. I'm a big believer in it, as it has given me an opportunity to put various defensive techniques and tactics under scrutiny and test them under simulated stress. And although the stress is simulated, my body's reaction to that stress has been very real. Its been a fantastic learning experience.

This past Sunday I participated in yet another course (this one specifically involving vehicles) and was put through 4 complex scenarios. I carried in the same manner as I do in real life, with a concealed UTM Glock 17T on my strong side and a single spare magazine on my support side. With this particular thread in mind, I looked back over my experiences and noted some interesting findings in regards to reloading.

On one occasion I shot to slide lock. The threat went down, but he still had the means to do me harm, so I reloaded as quickly as I could. I let the expended magazine hit the deck and a fresh mag went in. While this was happening, I was simultaneously communicating with my pumped up passenger and moving to a better position. The threat never reanimated, and my friend and I were able to put some distance and cover between us and the threat and dial 9-1-1.

On another occasion I put some rounds on a threat, but didn't use the entire magazine. While covering the downed threat I was able to support my injured friend and help him hobble to a position of cover. He was bleeding out badly and I needed to reholster my gun to help him and call 9-1-1. But before I reholstered, I needed to top off the gun, because I couldn't remember how many rounds I had fired and how many were left in the gun. Because the threat only possessed a contact weapon (that I knew of at the time), and because the threat was positioned where I could see him and he couldn't see me, and because he hadn't moved since I shot him, I pulled out my spare magazine, dropped the partial into my hand, made the exchange, and slammed home the fresh magazine. I then put the partial magazine back into my mag pouch, with the bullets facing forward like before. I did all this with my muzzle up and near my face, without looking at the gun directly, and while keeping an eye on the downed threat and the rest of the street. It happened very quickly (sorry Rob, forgot my shot timer ), and allowed me to then render aid to my injured friend while waiting for 9-1-1 to arrive.

I don't write this to prove that I'm some kind of tactical timmy or ninja extraordinaire-- quite the opposite. I'm still learning all this stuff and yet I never felt like a tactical reload was too complicated or too slow or prone to failure. There were things in both those scenarios that I could've done better, and they were addressed immediately after I ran it. Many times the decisions we make under stress are not black and white. The important part is that we are actively making decisions and taking actions that put us in a better position than we were previously.

I'm not suggesting that everyone do it the way I do. I'm just saying that I've tested my method with favorable results. I would recommend everyone test what they've been taught and see if it works under stress. If you find yourself fumbling magazines then maybe another technique would be a better fit. Stress affects everyone differently. You should know how it affects YOU.

 

[812guns]

I carry mine facing the rear.....but now you have me thinking. I will have to try it both ways at the range next time and see which one feels better.

 

[esrice]

UPDATE!

Although I don't think its the only metric to be considered, speed was mentioned as the primary way to gauge the effectiveness of various reloading techniques.

So today while at the range I decided to try some mag changes using the "bullets rearward" technique. It was kind of a last-minute idea, but I had Roadie with me, who uses the technique, so he was able to show me how its performed.

I started by doing about 17 "bullets rearward" reloads to get myself acclimated to the technique. I would start from low-ready, fire 1, reload, fire 1 again. At first it was really awkward but by the 17th time it felt OK enough to break out the video camera.

Now, I couldn't for the life of me remember how some earlier posters had timed their reloads. Looking back, I realize that I didn't time it the same way, so it might be difficult to compare my videos directly to theirs. However, since I used the same method each time, I can at least compare the times of my own runs using the two different techniques.

Using a shot timer, I recorded my total time from the buzzer to the last shot. Looking back I should've used the time between the first and last shots to get a more accurate idea of how long the actual reloads were taking.

Here were my times:

Bullets Rearward

1. 4.67
2. 4.00
3. 4.10
4. 3.14
5. 3.84
6. 3.32
7. 2.97
8. 3.06
9. 3.02
10. 2.81
11. 2.70
12. 2.94
13. 2.88
14. 3.00

Bullets Forward

1. 3.82
2. 5.76
3. 3.42
4. 2.90
5. 3.59
6. 3.53
7. 2.73
8. 2.78
9. 2.79
10. 2.95
11. 2.85
12. 3.00
13. 2.64
14. 3.60
15. 2.55
16. 2.55

Here are videos of my best and worst times using both techniques.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV9wnLc1Mh0[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0Z6DLywyX8[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ji30DQCJ0-4[/ame]


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROBbag-NAJI[/ame]




Looking at the data it appears that I was reloading faster overall using the bullets forward technique. However I didn't find the difference to be so great when I considered that all of my prior training has been using the bullets forward technique.



I also noted that my bullets forward reloads were somewhat hindered by the mag pouch I am currently T&Eing. It was so wide that I was having trouble getting a solid index on the magazine. I didn't have this issue when running bullets rearward due to the magazine being indexed differently.


So after getting out there and actually trying it, it is my opinion that the differences between the two techniques are minor, and that someone well versed in "bullets rearward" mag changes wouldn't have any disadvantages against someone well versed in "bullets forward"-- it just depends on how well practiced the shooter is.


But the valid question was once raised "Why do all the fastest shooters all use bullets forward?" I believe it could be one of two things. 1) They were all initially taught/trained using that technique so that is what they practiced and got fast at. Or 2) the minor differences I noticed are magnified when shooters are shooting SO fast that 100ths of a second are what separate the fastest shooters.


All-in-all I enjoyed the range time and liked trying out something new. I will continue to carry my spare magazine "bullets forward", but I now feel less inclined to crown it as the "only" valid technique.

Many thanks to Roadie for running the shot timer and to lovemywoods for running the camera.

 

[Coach]

The second video from the top shows why the bullets rearward technique is not as good. You don't have that finger easily in to position along the front of the magazine and that means a less positive seating of the mag and that means slower. If things go right this method will be close, but it is easily screwed.

The fastest times on the techniques may be close but reducing time and closing that gap will be tough.

The crowd that earns a living shooting against each other all use this technique because it matters. It is faster, and it is more consistent. If it did not matter there would be some variation among them.

On an unrelated note. You should look the magazine in on the reload and the gun is a bit low. Shifting the eyes to the spot will speed it up quite a bit.

I appreciate your scientific approach to this question.

 

[David Rose]

I've missed this thread.

 

[Rob377]

1. There are variations in your presentation speed that muddy your data. The timer was picking up the shot to shot times, why not use those and eliminate an unnecessary variable?

2. The responses to the question assume a linear relationship between your speed and that of the fastest shooters, i.e. that the time differential between forward and backward will be the same as speeds increase from your level to theirs. As a result, you ignore the potential answer that the backward technique breaks down at their speed, and that's why thy don't use it.

It's like doing some parade laps at the track using the racing line, and then not using it, and concluding there isn't much advantage to properly apexing a corner. Sure, at Miss Daisy pace, there will be minimal difference. However, because the relationship is not linear, at even amateur racing pace, it the difference is HUGE. Not using the racing line as a technique will break down at speed.

This is more likely explanation as to why it's not used by people for whom speed and consistency matter.

Like Coach said, if the difference was negligible, than there would be some variation. But there isn't.

 

[esrice]

I appreciate your scientific approach to this question.

I wouldn't exactly call it scientific, but it sure was a great way to spend an afternoon.

The timer was picking up the shot to shot times, why not use those and eliminate an unnecessary variable?

Like I said above, I couldn't remember the preferred method of timing. Using the shot-to-shot times would've been much better.

As a result, you ignore the potential answer that the backward technique breaks down at their speed, and that's why thy don't use it.

Not ignored at all. This is exactly what I meant when I said

Or 2) the minor differences I noticed are magnified when shooters are shooting SO fast that 100ths of a second are what separate the fastest shooters.

Meaning that even though the differences I noticed at my speed were minor, they could become greater when running at professional speeds.