Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[HardTargetFirearms]

I have quoted a few of your posts and cut out some of the dialog. Not trying to pick on anything you say, just trying to save some space.

Yes a person should always strive to be as proficient as possible. But lets face it most people are not. This would include some LEOs. The tactical reload is a good exercise for those interested in the martial arts of pistol craft. But is it the most practical technique to master.

By your own admission most fights are ended with very few rounds fired. I also very much agree with the fact that we need to continue to scan for additional threats. If that second threat is present I would think a person would want rounds in the gun. So a balance of speed and reliability in the reload is really important. Bullets forward or back your choice, just make sure you can do it.

Your simunition scenario is a valid point. I certainly hope that I am never in an active shooter scenario. Yes it is possible. Yes as a student I should consider it a possibility. But this type of blazing gun battle is much more likely for professional in law enforcement or the military. Professionals carrying a gun as part of the job should be expected to and would have access to training facilities. But since most people work with limited budget, time, facilities...would it not make more sense to spend that time learning scanning techniques, identifying cover, situational awareness and reloading/clearing malfunctions in as few steps as possible?

I think that it is easy to forget that there are a lot of people who have not devoted the time to practice that they should. I know I don't.

Edit: To get back on topic. Maybe some of us should get together and try different types of reloading techniques. Bullets forward vs. back and Dropping the Mag vs Retaining the Mag. Only way to form an opinion and better ourselves is to try different thing. With that I have nothing more to add, but have enjoyed this thread. Thank You. - Nate

Lots here - so I'll just dig right in.

Proficiency: Agreed. Most people are NOT proficient with their weapons. And that goes for many LEOs. Sometimes its a lack of training. Sometimes its a lack of desire. But at the end of the day, regardless of who you are, the responsibility of carrying a gun is a BIG DEAL. You need to train for it and just remember - if you have to use that weapon YOU and ONLY YOU are responsible for the rounds you send down-range. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN and then TRAIN some more.

The tactical reload has saved lives and it will save lives. In our book, it's absolutely mandatory to know that. As I said, everybody should know their weapon inside and out. And learning how to do a very simple tactical reload is part of that. The techinique is surprisingly simple when done properly.

I'll say it again: Bullets backward is a BIG mistake and it's actually an indicator that the gun is not being indexed correctly during a reload and that your hand position is all wrong on the magazine during a reload. And that leads me to the final point:

YES, we need to get a bunch of you guys together, go to the range and do some comparison. At the end of the day, those who have gone bullets backwards in the past will NOT be doing that any more. Your reload will be a LOT better, a LOT smoother and a LOT faster. I promise you that. Its just not as efficient. Plain and simple.

If somebody can tell me how, I'll post pics and video of this to prove my point.

 

[Roadie]

Lots here - so I'll just dig right in.

Proficiency: Agreed. Most people are NOT proficient with their weapons. And that goes for many LEOs. Sometimes its a lack of training. Sometimes its a lack of desire. But at the end of the day, regardless of who you are, the responsibility of carrying a gun is a BIG DEAL. You need to train for it and just remember - if you have to use that weapon YOU and ONLY YOU are responsible for the rounds you send down-range. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN and then TRAIN some more.

The tactical reload has saved lives and it will save lives. In our book, it's absolutely mandatory to know that. As I said, everybody should know their weapon inside and out. And learning how to do a very simple tactical reload is part of that. The techinique is surprisingly simple when done properly.

I'll say it again: Bullets backward is a BIG mistake and it's actually an indicator that the gun is not being indexed correctly during a reload and that your hand position is all wrong on the magazine during a reload. And that leads me to the final point:

YES, we need to get a bunch of you guys together, go to the range and do some comparison. At the end of the day, those who have gone bullets backwards in the past will NOT be doing that any more. Your reload will be a LOT better, a LOT smoother and a LOT faster. I promise you that. Its just not as efficient. Plain and simple.

If somebody can tell me how, I'll post pics and video of this to prove my point.

So, exactly what is "indexed correctly during a reload" in your estimation?

 

[rvb]

.... have access to training facilities. But since most people work with limited budget, time, facilities ... would it not make more sense to spend that time learning

you need NO budget or facilites, and very little time to learn whatever technique you're trying to master, be it a draw, a speed load, or a tac load. what you need is DRYFIRE. Even 15 minutes a day, 4-6 days/week.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

So, exactly what is "indexed correctly during a reload" in your estimation?

I'm in no way speaking for HTF, but to me, as I've said several times in this thread, it's all about getting the mag into the magwell. "Indexed correctly" is when the two align perfectly. When reloads go wrong, it's almost always at the point of getting the mag inserted.

I've dryfired it out several times. While bullets back may feel less contorted at the belt, it feels considerably MORE contorted at the gun, which is where things NEED to perfect.

-rvb

 

[DustyDawg48]

you need NO budget or facilites, and very little time to learn whatever technique you're trying to master, be it a draw, a speed load, or a tac load. what you need is DRYFIRE. Even 15 minutes a day, 4-6 days/week.

-rvb

This! It does not take long to become proficient in reloading if you simply take a few minutes of each day to do it. Oddly enough, VERT, the time you've spent asking why you should learn to do a tactical reload and then explaining your reasoning why you shouldn't...you could have become pretty proficient in it by now

there are lots of reasons to keep that magazine and probably very few to discard it. Even if you can simplify it to: Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Nobody can say for 100% certain that you won't ever be involved in an extended firefight. You'll expand your skillset and your mind just by learning to do that simple drill...more than likely I'm firing to slide-lock and crapping my pants at the same time if I am ever in that situation, but i can do a tactical reload quickly and efficiently and it doesn't take that long to learn. Much like carrying a simple pocket knife and a spare magazine, learning to do it and then having that skill in your toolbox is just sound advice.

 

[Roadie]

Looks like his index finer is kind of along the front corner of the mag at a bit of an angle, but fingertip on the front of the round, touching fingertip to the front of the magwell..

I'm in no way speaking for HTF, but to me, as I've said several times in this thread, it's all about getting the mag into the magwell. "Indexed correctly" is when the two align perfectly. When reloads go wrong, it's almost always at the point of getting the mag inserted.

I've dryfired it out several times. While bullets back may feel less contorted at the belt, it feels considerably MORE contorted at the gun, which is where things NEED to perfect.

-rvb

 

[VERT]

you need NO budget or facilites, and very little time to learn whatever technique you're trying to master, be it a draw, a speed load, or a tac load. what you need is DRYFIRE. Even 15 minutes a day, 4-6 days/week.

-rvb

This! It does not take long to become proficient in reloading if you simply take a few minutes of each day to do it. Oddly enough, VERT, the time you've spent asking why you should learn to do a tactical reload and then explaining your reasoning why you shouldn't...you could have become pretty proficient in it by now

Who said I don't practice it and I didn't know how to do it.

 

[bwframe]

Some interesting reading on the "tactical" reload.

Tactical Reload: Trick or Reality?

IMHO, hard to argue with Mr. Bane. I like this quote:

I had occasion to spend some time with an Israeli security specialist, military sniper and top firearms instructor a few months back. He was conversant with the shooting sports, and although his name can’t appear in this article, I think his comments are germane.

“We stopped teaching tactical reloads,” he told me, “because the people who tried to do them kept getting killed.”

 

[David Rose]

IMHO, hard to argue with Mr. Bane. I like this quote:

I had occasion to spend some time with an Israeli security specialist, military sniper and top firearms instructor a few months back. He was conversant with the shooting sports, and although his name can’t appear in this article, I think his comments are germane.

“We stopped teaching tactical reloads,” he told me, “because the people who tried to do them kept getting killed.”

Sorry this was one of the least believable claimes in a fairly far fetched article. The idea that they're stacking commandos who were stupid enough to use a tac reload like cord wood somewhere over in Israel is a little hard to believe.

 

[GBuck]

Sorry this was one of the least believable claimes in a fairly far fetched article. The idea that they're stacking commandos who were stupid enough to use a tac reload like cord wood somewhere over in Israel is a little hard to believe.

Especially considering the Israelis don't even carry a round in the tube.

 

[bwframe]

Sorry this was one of the least believable claimes in a fairly far fetched article. The idea that they're stacking commandos who were stupid enough to use a tac reload like cord wood somewhere over in Israel is a little hard to believe.

Especially considering the Israelis don't even carry a round in the tube.

I'll certainly take your word into consideration over Micheal Bane's when your reputation can scratch the surface of his.

 

[Jackson]

I'll certainly take your word into consideration over Micheal Bane's when your reputation can scratch the surface of his.

Who is Michael Bane? (Because I really don't know.)

 

[Coach]

Who is Michael Bane? (Because I really don't know.)

Shooting Gallery is his show.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

So, exactly what is "indexed correctly during a reload" in your estimation?

Not sure how to describe with words. Somebody tell me how to post video here and I will show you first-hand. We have video clips from training I can post up if I figure out how to do so.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

IMHO, hard to argue with Mr. Bane. I like this quote:

I had occasion to spend some time with an Israeli security specialist, military sniper and top firearms instructor a few months back. He was conversant with the shooting sports, and although his name can’t appear in this article, I think his comments are germane.

“We stopped teaching tactical reloads,” he told me, “because the people who tried to do them kept getting killed.”

Interesting. One of our assistant instructors at Hard Target Firearms is a former IDF Special Forces guy. And they certainly teach some things differently. It makes for interesting classes though because he brings a lot to the table. And how people are executing reloads is one of those things.

Again though, it's situational. If I am on an open battlefield, its a different story than if I am in a gunfight and shooting from cover. Don't get me wrong - a tactical reload can get you killed. But so can running out of ammo.

"Anything you do can get you killed. Including nothing". Not my line obviously. But it's very relevant here. Learn the skill. It's easy. It won't hurt to know it and it may just save your bacon some day.

 

[GBuck]

I'll certainly take your word into consideration over Micheal Bane's when your reputation can scratch the surface of his.

Um... I don't know why I was included in this when the Israeli method is widely known... Since I don't have the "reputation" of Mr. Bane, I will show you a video.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRdZ3hZ8y-w[/ame]

 

[David Rose]

I'll certainly take your word into consideration over Micheal Bane's when your reputation can scratch the surface of his.

I love Bane but I can't shut off my BS filter just because I like the guy.

 

[rvb]

From that still, I don't see that the mag and grip are aligned on any axis. I went back and watched the vid, but unfortunately the camera either changes angles or failed to keep the mag in frame on every reload at the point the mag goes into the gun.

"indexing" is not the simple act of putting the finger on the nose of the top round. Similar to an index when we draw, where we want the gun to be on target without further adjustment, we want the index when we reload to position the mag to effortlessly enter the grip without any further adjustment.

-rvb

 

[GBuck]

From that still, I don't see that the mag and grip are aligned on any axis. I went back and watched the vid, but unfortunately the camera either changes angles or failed to keep the mag in frame on every reload at the point the mag goes into the gun.

"indexing" is not the simple act of putting the finger on the nose of the top round. Similar to an index when we draw, where we want the gun to be on target without further adjustment, we want the index when we reload to position the mag to effortlessly enter the grip without any further adjustment.

-rvb

Yeah? And?

 

[bwframe]

...Learn the skill. It's easy. It won't hurt to know it and it may just save your bacon some day.

Thank you, but NO.
My training has led me to the understanding that standing still makes me a stationary target. Much more likely to be killed as a good target than for running out of ammo.