Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[Rob377]

I don't currently have time to read the entire article (I most certainly will when I do have time), but I LOL'd at the very first sentence.

Back with more commentary later.

I chuckled at it too. But, the guy makes some decent points on the merits later on in the piece.

 

[VERT]

Some interesting reading on the "tactical" reload.

Tactical Reload: Trick or Reality?

Interesting article. The author did make some very good points. Rob has convinced me.

Lets look at this whole thing from a slightly different perspective. Whether a person does a "tactical reload" or a "speed reload" the end result is ultimately the same. In the end a person's personal boom stick is topped off. So now the difference is 1) a partially loaded magazine is retained or 2) we leave some cartridges laying on the ground. Why not just leave them? I can see a LEO or soldier wanting to retain rounds. These professionals often operate in groups and might be involved in prolonged firefights. But as a single person fighting for my life..... Maybe in an active shooter scenario. But even in that situation if there is truely a lull in the fighting and a person is behind cover, wouldn't it be easier just to drop the mag and then pick it up later?

Now this is not an attempt to say there is no need for the "tactical reload". I think that any serious student of pistol craft needs to practice this technique. But I am beginning to form the opinion that the "tactical reload" should be considered an advanced technique to be utilized in specialized situations. The "speed reload" is much more basic and of more value.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

Sorry...I have not read all the posts here. But to your point...why retain the mag if you are not likely to be in a prolonged fight as a citizen? A couple of good things to think about:

First, most people do NOT carry a spare mag, period. I am guilty of this because my G19 holds a lot of rounds. I am not likely at all to need more. And even when you are talking about a single stack 45, subcompact, revolver, ect...the average gunfight is 3 shots in 3 seconds at a very close range and it's over. That is a proven stat. Given those facts, like I said, most people do not carry a spare mag. So you are probably not ever going to reload in a gunfight. That's not to say the mag won't come out though...if you have a double feed, et...you need to be able to A) deal with it and B) retain your mag while doing so. It's another reason why bullets forward is the way to go on a reload.

Secondly, the situation. You may deal with one bad guy. But there is a very strong chance the bad guy is not alone. It's nasty to even think about but it is possible (not terribly likely) to shoot a gun almost dry, particularly if you don't have a lot of capacity in it. You need to secure yourself/family and the scene until the police show up. That is on you. I don't want to do that with an empty gun. Rounds you retain in an almost-empty mag = a few survival rounds in the event crap hits the fan while you wait for the calvary.

 

[VERT]

Sorry...I have not read all the posts here. But to your point...why retain the mag if you are not likely to be in a prolonged fight as a citizen? A couple of good things to think about:

First, most people do NOT carry a spare mag, period. I am guilty of this because my G19 holds a lot of rounds. I am not likely at all to need more. And even when you are talking about a single stack 45, subcompact, revolver, ect...the average gunfight is 3 shots in 3 seconds at a very close range and it's over. That is a proven stat. Given those facts, like I said, most people do not carry a spare mag. So you are probably not ever going to reload in a gunfight. That's not to say the mag won't come out though...if you have a double feed, et...you need to be able to A) deal with it and B) retain your mag while doing so. It's another reason why bullets forward is the way to go on a reload.

Secondly, the situation. You may deal with one bad guy. But there is a very strong chance the bad guy is not alone. It's nasty to even think about but it is possible (not terribly likely) to shoot a gun almost dry, particularly if you don't have a lot of capacity in it. You need to secure yourself/family and the scene until the police show up. That is on you. I don't want to do that with an empty gun. Rounds you retain in an almost-empty mag = a few survival rounds in the event crap hits the fan while you wait for the calvary.

Thank you for joining in. I have noticed some of your other posts and your website. I definately trust and wnat to know your opinion on this topic.

If you don't have a spare mag then how are you going to do a tactical reload? In this situation if there is a gun related failure a person must retain the mag.

If we are concerned about a second attacker (which could be likely) wouldn't we our first objective be to get the gun fully loaded again? Then after the fact as we secure the scene why not just simply pick up the dropped partially loaded mag? This of course assumes we have a spare mag.

Just for the record I have found it near impossble to secure my spare mag pouch to my boxers. I guess if I have to use my gun to defend my home in the middle of the night this whole arguement is mute. Had to bring it up because it is sort of related to your thread about favorite home defense weapons.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

Thank you for joining in. I have noticed some of your other posts and your website. I definately trust and wnat to know your opinion on this topic.

If you don't have a spare mag then how are you going to do a tactical reload? In this situation if there is a gun related failure a person must retain the mag.

If we are concerned about a second attacker (which could be likely) wouldn't we our first objective be to get the gun fully loaded again? Then after the fact as we secure the scene why not just simply pick up the dropped partially loaded mag? This of course assumes we have a spare mag.

Just for the record I have found it near impossble to secure my spare mag pouch to my boxers. I guess if I have to use my gun to defend my home in the middle of the night this whole arguement is mute. Had to bring it up because it is sort of related to your thread about favorite home defense weapons.

I stated most people don't carry a spare mag. I never said they should not. HA! Hell, I should carry one more often than I do. Like a lot of folks though, convienence can rule the day for me based on what I am wearing and where I am going. Not making excuses...it is what it is. But to your question, if you don't have a spare mag, there is no tactical reload. And knowing this is actually why I went from G27 to G19 as my carry gun. With a 15+1 capacity, it's almost twice the ammo.

In a gunfight, whether it's one attacker or 10...your FIRST concern after the bad guys are down is to SCAN the area for more bad guys. They are like roaches...where there is one, there is more. So before you reload, scan. You don't want a bad guy coming up behind you and putting one in your head as you reload. Once you are content that there are no active bad guys, if you have time/opportunity/ability, yes, do a tactical reload from COVER and pocket that mag with whatever rounds you have left in it. Then SCAN again and keep your situational awareness at 100% until help arrives.

As for carrying that spare mag, anyplace you want to carry it is OK. But I'll say this. If its buried in a pocket, you don't want to fishing for it during a gunfight. So if you are carrying a spare mag, I'd recommend a mag holster if you can't get that mag in play very quickly...and the only way to know for sure is to suit up and go "game it" at the range. See how fast you can do a speed reload. And then see how fast you can do a tactical reload. You'll know if it's clumsy or slow or both...and it if is, make it so it's not.

 

[VERT]

Once you are content that there are no active bad guys, if you have time/opportunity/ability, yes, do a tactical reload from COVER and pocket that mag with whatever rounds you have left in it. .

But why? Why worry about the retaining the mag? Just for the possibilty you will need those extra cartridges.

For the record I am terrible about carrying spare ammo myself. Usually I just have a j frame in my pocket to boot. I am the opposite of Tacti-Cool.

 

[David Rose]

I find it interesting that the people saying they can't lose focus on their surroundings long enough to do a tac reload think its a good idea to start looking at the ground to find a mag they just dropped.

 

[bwframe]

I have been trained that if you aren't shooting, you should be moving. NOT standing still making a good target. You can certainly scan on the move as you can reload. What about tac reloading on the move?

 

[WileECoyotee]

I find it interesting that the people saying they can't lose focus on their surroundings long enough to do a tac reload think its a good idea to start looking at the ground to find a mag they just dropped.

This !

 

[VERT]

I find it interesting that the people saying they can't lose focus on their surroundings long enough to do a tac reload think its a good idea to start looking at the ground to find a mag they just dropped.

OK this I can see and agree with as well as BWFRAME's comment about movement. So if we are in a running gun battle then retaining rounds makes sense right. But going back to the IDPA example the rule would be to do a reload behind cover. If the cover is adequate then why move? Might be a reason to move, who knows. But sure...why not reload on the move if it works, a person has practiced the tac reload enough times and they have the dexterity to pull it off.

HardTarget brought up a good point. Many self defense shooting are short, violent and involve relatively few shoots. Still a good idea to top of the gun IMO, but that assumes we are carrying an extra mag. But this is INGO so lets assume we all have our semiauto fighting pistol and spare mags.

Scenario:

-Bad guy jumps out with __________
-INGOer draws their blaster and goes to work. BANG, BANG, BANG
(Wait that won't work. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang............. )
- Scan the area. We got him!!!!!
- No immediate threat so we move to cover and reload. Doesn't matter how we get more rounds in the gun, because the it is now reloaded with a full mag and as a result the original number of cartridges we started with. (This of course assumes that we did not drop both mags in the process.) Are we likely to need more? Maybe and if we do they are in the gun and we are hopefully in a better fighting position. But very likely the engagement is now over.

Thinking through this scenario it dawns on me. The tactical reload makes sense for guns with a relatively low round count. Take for example my 5 shot J Frame. If I expend three rounds that is 60% of my guns capacity and even with a speed loader about a third of my available ammo. Hope this isn't an active shooter situation! Even a 1911 three rounds represent quite a bit out of an 8 round magazine. Might want to top that puppy off and keep those bullets. But lets say a person has bought one of those evil, soulless plastic framed, striker fired guns (despicable things). We haven't even went through a quarter of the ammo in the gun. If it is a raging gun battle and we burn up most of the mag and then reload what we are left with is a lot of ammo. Maybe still not enough, who knows.

So what have we learned?:
1) Bullets Forward is better. Unless you are a prolific beer drinker in which case you can practice your reloads every time you grab a can.
2) Tactical Reloads are great because....Premium defense ammo and mags are expensive so we better not leave any laying around.
3) Glocks are better then 1911s
4) CC gives you a tactical advantage. Or is is OCers cause more problems. I can't keep up anymore.

Glad they got rid of the neg rep because otherwise I couldn't stir the pot.

 

[VERT]

But why? Why worry about the retaining the mag? Just for the possibilty you will need those extra cartridges.

I find it interesting that the people saying they can't lose focus on their surroundings long enough to do a tac reload think its a good idea to start looking at the ground to find a mag they just dropped.

This !

Back to my original question. Why worry about retaining the mag? Or to ask it another way. What is more likely: 1) A person might flub up the tactical reload and drop the partial one anyway. Even worse drop both of them or fail to seat the reload. 2) Needing more rounds after the initial few seconds of contact.

I know what is going to be said and that is we should train for all possible scenarios. But really dig down deep here, be honest. Where should novice shooters focus their energies. Tactical Reloading is an advanced skill.

 

[Rob377]

OK this I can see and agree with as well as BWFRAME's comment about movement. So if we are in a running gun battle then retaining rounds makes sense right. But going back to the IDPA example the rule would be to do a reload behind cover. If the cover is adequate then why move? Might be a reason to move, who knows. But sure...why not reload on the move if it works, a person has practiced the tac reload enough times and they have the dexterity to pull it off.

HardTarget brought up a good point. Many self defense shooting are short, violent and involve relatively few shoots. Still a good idea to top of the gun IMO, but that assumes we are carrying an extra mag. But this is INGO so lets assume we all have our semiauto fighting pistol and spare mags.

Scenario:

-Bad guy jumps out with __________
-INGOer draws their blaster and goes to work. BANG, BANG, BANG
(Wait that won't work. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang............. )
- Scan the area. We got him!!!!!
- No immediate threat so we move to cover and reload. Doesn't matter how we get more rounds in the gun, because the it is now reloaded with a full mag and as a result the original number of cartridges we started with. (This of course assumes that we did not drop both mags in the process.) Are we likely to need more? Maybe and if we do they are in the gun and we are hopefully in a better fighting position. But very likely the engagement is now over.

Thinking through this scenario it dawns on me. The tactical reload makes sense for guns with a relatively low round count. Take for example my 5 shot J Frame. If I expend three rounds that is 60% of my guns capacity and even with a speed loader about a third of my available ammo. Hope this isn't an active shooter situation! Even a 1911 three rounds represent quite a bit out of an 8 round magazine. Might want to top that puppy off and keep those bullets. But lets say a person has bought one of those evil, soulless plastic framed, striker fired guns (despicable things). We haven't even went through a quarter of the ammo in the gun. If it is a raging gun battle and we burn up most of the mag and then reload what we are left with is a lot of ammo. Maybe still not enough, who knows.

So what have we learned?:
1) Bullets Forward is better. Unless you are a prolific beer drinker in which case you can practice your reloads every time you grab a can.
2) Tactical Reloads are great because....Premium defense ammo and mags are expensive so we better not leave any laying around.
3) Glocks are better then 1911s
4) CC gives you a tactical advantage. Or is is OCers cause more problems. I can't keep up anymore.

Glad they got rid of the neg rep because otherwise I couldn't stir the pot.

The point about limited capacity was one mentioned in the article I posted. The Tac reload was conceived by 1911 guys in an era when the 1911 was pretty much the end-all, be-all of defensive pistols by the big names in the industry. Cooper, Vickers, Hackathorn, et al.
Note the reference to Walt Rauch, IDPA founder, who is credited with saying " the tactical reload probably won’t work if you have small hands or are using a double-stack magazine."

Now of course we know it can work with a double stack, but it's not the easiest of manipulations available.


As to losing focus - That's not the point, nor was it an assertion I made.

The point is to minimize the time you're not ready to put another shot on target, and break it up in to smaller chunks.

By way of analogy: let's say you're crossing a wide (say 4-lane) highway with limited visibility either way. You look both ways (search and assess), see that it's clear, and make the decision to cross. Do you go all the way across? No. You stop at the median if there is one, look both ways again, and go the rest of the way IF it's clear. If not, you don't.

The same general concept applies here. You've searched and assessed, but because you have limited visibility, both physically and metaphorically, you don't try to do too much before allowing another search and assess.
(limited metaphorically in the sense that you can't see into the future of a fluid and dynamic situation that is by its nature highly unpredictable).

To use the language of the tactical crowd, 2 shorter, faster OODA loops instead of one longer one. First reload, then, if you can, pick up the mag. Long OODA loops are easier to "get inside" than shorter ones, and having someone/something get inside your OODA loop is a bad thing.

 

[VERT]

The point about limited capacity was one mentioned in the article I posted. The Tac reload was conceived by 1911 guys in an era when the 1911 was pretty much the end-all, be-all of defensive pistols by the big names in the industry. Cooper, Vickers, Hackathorn, et al.
Note the reference to Walt Rauch, IDPA founder, who is credited with saying " the tactical reload probably won’t work if you have small hands or are using a double-stack magazine."

Yes I did catch that in the article. But I had to sort of digest the concept for a minute. I can be slow like that. Nice reference to breaking things down into smaller pieces or steps.

I have really enjoyed this thread! Many good concepts and opinions being posted here. I would say that most people have limited time to train and even more limited space or access to a range that allows for different types of practice. Seems to me that focusing on scanning, simple movement or movement to cover, and reload/weapons malfunction clearing that emphasizes gross motor skills makes sense.

 

[VERT]

I find it interesting that the people saying they can't lose focus on their surroundings long enough to do a tac reload think its a good idea to start looking at the ground to find a mag they just dropped.

Not planning on look at the ground or picking up the partially spent magazine. I figure there will be plenty of LEOs standing around shortly after the shooting stops. Let one of them pick it up. Heck they are probably going to put my gun, mags, & shell casings in a little plastic bag anyway.

David for the record I am just poking fun with this comment. I appreciate the input. It's just that I am stuck home from work today with a sick 2 year old.

 

[HICKMAN]

[STRIKE]They are going to take the mag as evidence anyway.

I'll jut leave it on the ground.[/STRIKE]


edit: Oops! What Vert just said!

 

[VERT]

Thought I would post a link to another interesting article.

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/are-tactical-reloads-a-waste-of-time/

 

[HICKMAN]

the thread seems to have shift from "what's a good way to EDC mags?" to "how can we make tac reloads relevant?"

I give up.

 

[VERT]

the thread seems to have shift from "what's a good way to EDC mags?" to "how can we make tac reloads relevant?"

I give up.

That is why I love INGO.

Oh, and for the record I keep my bullets facing forward. But I already mentioned that.

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

But why? Why worry about the retaining the mag? Just for the possibilty you will need those extra cartridges.

For the record I am terrible about carrying spare ammo myself. Usually I just have a j frame in my pocket to boot. I am the opposite of Tacti-Cool.

Absolutely for the sake of retaining those extra rounds. We are talking about a gunfight, not shooting at the range. If you are taking hostile fire, you will want all the rounds you can get your hands on. It's that simple.

Case and point: Run out of rounds during a Simunition scenario and watch what happens. The students tend to just stop fighting. "I'm out". Well, in real life, you can't just stop fighting and tell the bad guy "I'm out". (and we tell the students to never stop during training for this reason). So you want enough ammo at all times to END the fight. And retaining a mag IS the best way to operate IF you have a spare mag. It goes as far as possible in assuring you that you have enough ammo should you need it. And it flows with the overall "theme" of learning proper weapons manipulation with regards to doing speed loads, tac loads, clearing malfunctions, et.

To be as safe as you can be and to be as effective as you can be in a gunfight, I think everybody here wold agree that the person needs to be 110% proficient with his/her chosen weapon platform. You need to be able to do all this stuff in the dark. Literally. You need to be able to all this stuff very, very fast while on the move. You need to be able to do all this with one arm only - strong and weak side. You need to be flawless.

 

[VERT]

First, most people do NOT carry a spare mag, period. I am guilty of this because my G19 holds a lot of rounds. I am not likely at all to need more. And even when you are talking about a single stack 45, subcompact, revolver, ect...the average gunfight is 3 shots in 3 seconds at a very close range and it's over. That is a proven stat. Given those facts, like I said, most people do not carry a spare mag. So you are probably not ever going to reload in a gunfight.

In a gunfight, whether it's one attacker or 10...your FIRST concern after the bad guys are down is to SCAN the area for more bad guys. They are like roaches...where there is one, there is more. So before you reload, scan. You don't want a bad guy coming up behind you and putting one in your head as you reload. Once you are content that there are no active bad guys, if you have time/opportunity/ability, yes, do a tactical reload from COVER and pocket that mag with whatever rounds you have left in it. Then SCAN again and keep your situational awareness at 100% until help arrives.

Case and point: Run out of rounds during a Simunition scenario and watch what happens. The students tend to just stop fighting. "I'm out". Well, in real life, you can't just stop fighting and tell the bad guy "I'm out". (and we tell the students to never stop during training for this reason). So you want enough ammo at all times to END the fight. And retaining a mag IS the best way to operate IF you have a spare mag. It goes as far as possible in assuring you that you have enough ammo should you need it. And it flows with the overall "theme" of learning proper weapons manipulation with regards to doing speed loads, tac loads, clearing malfunctions, et.

To be as safe as you can be and to be as effective as you can be in a gunfight, I think everybody here wold agree that the person needs to be 110% proficient with his/her chosen weapon platform. You need to be able to do all this stuff in the dark. Literally. You need to be able to all this stuff very, very fast while on the move. You need to be able to do all this with one arm only - strong and weak side. You need to be flawless.

I have quoted a few of your posts and cut out some of the dialog. Not trying to pick on anything you say, just trying to save some space.

Yes a person should always strive to be as proficient as possible. But lets face it most people are not. This would include some LEOs. The tactical reload is a good exercise for those interested in the martial arts of pistol craft. But is it the most practical technique to master.

By your own admission most fights are ended with very few rounds fired. I also very much agree with the fact that we need to continue to scan for additional threats. If that second threat is present I would think a person would want rounds in the gun. So a balance of speed and reliability in the reload is really important. Bullets forward or back your choice, just make sure you can do it.

Your simunition scenario is a valid point. I certainly hope that I am never in an active shooter scenario. Yes it is possible. Yes as a student I should consider it a possibility. But this type of blazing gun battle is much more likely for professional in law enforcement or the military. Professionals carrying a gun as part of the job should be expected to and would have access to training facilities. But since most people work with limited budget, time, facilities...would it not make more sense to spend that time learning scanning techniques, identifying cover, situational awareness and reloading/clearing malfunctions in as few steps as possible?

I think that it is easy to forget that there are a lot of people who have not devoted the time to practice that they should. I know I don't.

Edit: To get back on topic. Maybe some of us should get together and try different types of reloading techniques. Bullets forward vs. back and Dropping the Mag vs Retaining the Mag. Only way to form an opinion and better ourselves is to try different thing. With that I have nothing more to add, but have enjoyed this thread. Thank You. - Nate