Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[HICKMAN]

Nice read Hickman. I can't disagree with this logic. I have often wondered this myself. Why would I need to reload the gun?

1) gun is out of cartridges - no reason to retain the mag
2) gun malfunctions - could be a bad mag so why retain it? Of course that assumes I happen to have a spare mag.
3) lull in action - that would be hard to determine. What I want is more rounds in my gun as fast as possible with as little requirement for fine motor skill as necessary. Hopefully I don't need more shoots later. Of course a person can pick mags up off the ground.

I admit I don't practice my tactical reloads as much as I should. Usually I just release the mag and then insert a new one. No rushing the process just hit the hole and run the slide.

 

[Rob377]

Point being, you don't know if a lull in action is actually that. And if there is, it wouldn't matter which way bullets were facing. You grab a mag from front pocket, back pocket, car, backpack, man purse or wherever.

Nice read. Even when running a pistol was my day job (or at least carrying it standing a post), the so-called "tactical reload" was not an item that was focused on.

Sure I do. If I'm not actively shooting/fighting, its a lull. I know this because I just scanned and assessed my surroundings. Part of assessing is determining if I need to fight again immediately, or if I have the opportunity to top off.



While I agree that we should be able to retrieve mags from all those places effectively, why not set yourself up for success in advance by placing them consistently?

Searched and assessed with the same awesome situational awareness that (in our hypo) missed all the opportunities to avoid the fight in the first place? All while hopped up on the adrenaline that makes people unable to perform a simple task like hitting a slide stop? (but still hit the mag release and guide a mag in, without even indexing, no less!)

and define "not actively shooting/fighting" not shooting for 1 second, 2? Have you cleared the nearby closets and hallways, or just search and assess the area you can see from where you stand? If its the latter, based on my training, I'm not voluntarily taking the gun out of action for anywhere from 3-4 seconds for some silly "tactical reload" unless I'm part of a team and they're covering me. Those days are long gone now, so none of that. Sure would suck to get caught halfway through the that silly, slow, and largely unnecessary procedure by the bad guy's buddy (that you didn't know about) who heard the shots from down the hall (that you didn't clear) and came to help.

 

[esrice]

Searched and assessed with the same awesome situational awareness that (in our hypo) missed all the opportunities to avoid the fight in the first place? All while hopped up on the adrenaline that makes people unable to perform a simple task like hitting a slide stop? (but still hit the mag release and guide a mag in, without even indexing, no less!)

No, searching for additional threats. Assessing what the next move is. Maybe someone else needs handled. Maybe the only threat is down. Maybe you need to put the blaster away and render medical aid to a friendly.

But before you put away that pistol with 1 or 2 rounds in the magazine, top it off and get it back to 100%. How terrible would it be if another threat presented itself while you were trying to apply a tourniquet and you were forced into a speed reload because you only had 2 rounds? I'd rather reload on my terms, when possible.

and define "not actively shooting/fighting" not shooting for 1 second, 2?

Such situations are fluid and dynamic. You can't put a time stamp on it. You described several variables that could change your decision making process.

This is why training in "decision making" is just as important (if not moreso) as training on weapon skillsets. I could be the fastest gun in the west, but it does me no good if I make bad decisions.

 

[GBuck]

This is why training in "decision making" is just as important (if not moreso) as training on weapon skillsets. I could be the fastest gun in the west, but it does me no good if I make bad decisions.

 

[Fordtough25]

Point being, you don't know if a lull in action is actually that. And if there is, it wouldn't matter which way bullets were facing. You grab a mag from front pocket, back pocket, car, backpack, man purse or wherever.

Man purse? I hate to break up this serious thread but I literally LOL'd when I read that. I can't even make the image of something like that pop into my head but trying to imagine a grown man drawing his defensive firearm from one is too much!

 

[GBuck]

Man purse? I hate to break up this serious thread but I literally LOL'd when I read that. I can't even make the image of something like that pop into my head but trying to imagine a grown man drawing his defensive firearm from one is too much!

Ever met theweakerbrother?

 

[esrice]

Ever met theweakerbrother?

I don't think you can call it a man purse when he's also wielding a machinegun.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC6iLqXbFhw[/ame]

 

[GBuck]

That has to be the ugliest rifle I have ever seen.

 

[Rob377]

No, searching for additional threats. Assessing what the next move is. Maybe someone else needs handled. Maybe the only threat is down. Maybe you need to put the blaster away and render medical aid to a friendly.

But before you put away that pistol with 1 or 2 rounds in the magazine, top it off and get it back to 100%. How terrible would it be if another threat presented itself while you were trying to apply a tourniquet and you were forced into a speed reload because you only had 2 rounds? I'd rather reload on my terms, when possible.



Such situations are fluid and dynamic. You can't put a time stamp on it. You described several variables that could change your decision making process.

This is why training in "decision making" is just as important (if not moreso) as training on weapon skillsets. I could be the fastest gun in the west, but it does me no good if I make bad decisions.

Let's think about this critically.

Mere seconds removed from a dynamic fluid situation, one can do a co-called tactical reload that will take the gun out of action anywhere from 3-5 seconds.

This assumes of course, that it can be done in that time frame. To listen to the tactical timmy crowd, a stressful situation destroys your ability to hit a slide stop consistently, so what does that say about your ability to juggle two mags in your weak hand? (this is an excellent bull**** test for trainers) If the tactical crowd that believes that you turn into a fumble thumbed klutz is right, then we're talking significantly longer than 3-5 seconds.

Or, like JTs article says, you can execute a speed reload and have the gun ready to go in 1.5 seconds or so.

In a fluid and dynamic situation, 1.5 seconds with the gun down is a better decision than 3-5+ with the gun down. (unless of course you're clairvoyant and can tell for sure that you've got 3-5+ seconds to fumble with magazines)

 

[Jackson]

What is a "Tactical Timmy"? I've been wondering for awhile what criteria make a person one and how I could tell who they are.

 

[Rob377]

What is a "Tactical Timmy"? I've been wondering for awhile what criteria make a person one and how I could tell who they are.

They're in the same genus as the Mall Ninja, though a slightly different species.

 

[esrice]

Mere seconds removed from a dynamic fluid situation, one can do a co-called tactical reload that will take the gun out of action anywhere from 3-5 seconds.

This assumes of course, that it can be done in that time frame. To listen to the tactical timmy crowd, a stressful situation destroys your ability to hit a slide stop consistently, so what does that say about your ability to juggle two mags in your weak hand? (this is an excellent bull**** test for trainers) If the tactical crowd that believes that you turn into a fumble thumbed klutz is right, then we're talking significantly longer than 3-5 seconds.

I've never said you can't hit a slide stop under stress. And I haven't seen it posted anywhere in this thread. Is Tactical Timmy still teaching that?

Or, like JTs article says, you can execute a speed reload and have the gun ready to go in 1.5 seconds or so.

Sure, you could do that. But as a civilian gun toter with ~35 rounds on board, retaining those few extra rounds while still getting your gun back to 100% can be advantageous.

In a fluid and dynamic situation, 1.5 seconds with the gun down is a better decision than 3-5+ with the gun down. (unless of course you're clairvoyant and can tell for sure that you've got 3-5+ seconds to fumble with magazines)

Again, this isn't a tactical reload vs. speed reload and "which one is faster" argument. They both have their times and places.

And look at it this way, if I fumble my tactical reload, then let it go to the deck and get the rounds you have in the gun.

With the tactical reload method that I personally employ, the gun is "out of service" for just an instant, as the magazines are exchanged rapidly just under the gun. Its not like I'm just sitting there with an empty magwell while I search around my pocket or beltline for a mag.

By way of yet another wonderful hypothetical:

You just used your 1911 to defend your own life, shooting 7 (of 8 total) rounds (which you most likely don't know the exact number as you didn't count them while firing). All you know is that your pistol's slide isn't locked to the rear. You now have a round chambered and an empty magazine. You've assessed that the perp is down, but you also see your wife on the ground with a bullet wound to her shoulder. You pull her over to a nearby position of cover. She's bleeding badly and needs your aid.

Now what?

Do you reholster your gun? Lay it on the ground? Where do you put it? What condition is it in? Should you drop the magazine and count the number of rounds left, just to make sure? Do you have the time and opportunity to exchange the current mag with one with 7 more rounds?

The bad guy's blood pressure has come back up since he was laying down, and gets up to shoot again. You again access your pistol and pull the trigger. BANG. Slide locks to the rear. He's shooting and now you're forced into a speed reload, costing you valuable time.

If only you had taken the precautionary step of topping off, you'd have 7 rounds at your disposal instead of 1.

 

[Rob377]

I've never said you can't hit a slide stop under stress. And I haven't seen it posted anywhere in this thread. Is Tactical Timmy still teaching that?

Never said you did. But, there are plenty of those here who do, and couldn't resist the opportunity to point out the glaring, blatant and complete incoherency that passes for "tactical"

Sure, you could do that. But as a civilian gun toter with ~35 rounds on board, retaining those few extra rounds while still getting your gun back to 100% can be advantageous.

Speed reload, gun is ready to go. If it turns out you actually did have the extra 2-5 seconds, go ahead and pick it up. If it turns out you didn't, well...there ya go.

Again, this isn't a tactical reload vs. speed reload and "which one is faster" argument. They both have their times and places.

And look at it this way, if I fumble my tactical reload, then let it go to the deck and get the rounds you have in the gun.

With the tactical reload method that I personally employ, the gun is "out of service" for just an instant, as the magazines are exchanged rapidly just under the gun. Its not like I'm just sitting there with an empty magwell while I search around my pocket or beltline for a mag.

An instant? Really? have you put it on a timer? Seconds count. Fractions of a second count. Next time you head out to the woods bring the shot timer, and see how long it takes before you can put a shot on target. I think you'll be surprised how long "an instant" really is. I've done both versions, on a timer, and can quantify it. The difference is significant.

And of course it's about speed. Having the gun down for the least amount of time is better than having it down for a longer period of time ESPECIALLY in fluid and dynamic situation where you don't really know whats around the corner.

By way of yet another wonderful hypothetical:

You just used your 1911 to defend your own life, shooting 7 (of 8 total) rounds (which you most likely don't know the exact number as you didn't count them while firing). All you know is that your pistol's slide isn't locked to the rear. You now have a round chambered and an empty magazine. You've assessed that the perp is down, but you also see your wife on the ground with a bullet wound to her shoulder. You pull her over to a nearby position of cover. She's bleeding badly and needs your aid.

Now what?

Do you reholster your gun? Lay it on the ground? Where do you put it? What condition is it in? Should you drop the magazine and count the number of rounds left, just to make sure? Do you have the time and opportunity to exchange the current mag with one with 7 more rounds?

The bad guy's blood pressure has come back up since he was laying down, and gets up to shoot again. You again access your pistol and pull the trigger. BANG. Slide locks to the rear. He's shooting and now you're forced into a speed reload, costing you valuable time.

If only you had taken the precautionary step of topping off, you'd have 7 rounds at your disposal instead of 1.

You're assuming that one needs to do a tactical reload to top off. That's incorrect. Top off, but top off quickly and without unnecessary fumbling. Do it in 1.5 seconds instead of 3-5.

It's a fluid and dynamic situation. You may have the extra time, you may not, and unless you're clairvoyant, you won't know. Assessing 1.5 seconds into the future of a fluid dynamic situation is a safer bet than assessing 3-5 into the future. As your hypo points out, that guy you thought was down could pop back up at anytime. His buddy could bust in. So why take your gun out of action for any longer than it needs to be?

 

[esrice]

Who is taking 3-5 seconds to get their gun back in action? Even 1.5 seconds is ay longer than necessary.

Mag drops out, fresh mag goes back in right behind it.

Here's the best video I can find to demonstrate.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIsImJ8Lwps[/ame]

 

[Rob377]

Who is taking 3-5 seconds to get their gun back in action? Even 1.5 seconds is ay longer than necessary.

Mag drops out, fresh mag goes back in right behind it.

Here's the best video I can find to demonstrate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIsImJ8Lwps

Shot to shot times. (same as the reload drill in all the vids posted)

From the time you fire the last shot, do the reload, and can put another round on target.

For a speed reload, we've seen people do it in less than a second. For a tactical reload, that time will be in the ballpark of 3-5 seconds. From the time Travis initiated the reload to the time he would be able to get back on target there was ~4 seconds. And he's Travis freakin 'Haley.

Get the timer out and try it. You'll see what I mean.

 

[esrice]

Off-topic question Rob-- have you ever put yourself on the timer for reholstering?

 

[GBuck]

Arguing with a brick wall can be fun.

 

[Rob377]

Off-topic question Rob-- have you ever put yourself on the timer for reholstering?

Maybe.

 

[esrice]

Shot to shot times. (same as the reload drill in all the vids posted)

Ok I guess we're measuring differently then. Now your times make more sense.

I was talking about time between when the gun is ready (full magazine in place) to when its ready again (partial is gone and fresh is in its place). Meaning the time it took for the exchange to take place.

Shot-to-shot times don't make much sense in this case IMO, as you wouldn't do a tactical reload immediately after firing a shot, and then quickly fire again.

 

[esrice]

Maybe.

I KNEW IT! hahahaha