Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[Roadie]

Getting the gun back in action faster is better. I'd think that point is noncontroversial. Ergo, techniques that allow you to do that are better than techniques that are slower, no matter how comfortable they might be.

Bullets backwards is a slower technique. If you like slow, and slow is good enough for you, have at it.

If you contend that it isn't slow, and is just as good or better, let's see some reloads.

I'm sorry, I don't have a video camera, nor do I feel the need to justify to YOU what works for ME.

So your advice to me is to relearn something that I feel comfortable doing, that works for me, is fast for me, all because YOU don't understand/agree with my method?

Sorry, personally I don't understand how pulling the mag out of your holster, turning your wrist while moving the mag up into position, is "better" than pulling the mag out with the bullets back, wrist locked, never needing to rotate, and up into position. The difference is, nobody that uses this method is bashing someone using the other method.. nobody using "bullets back" is screaming that their method is "RIGHT" and trying to convince others to change.

No thanks, I will stick with Mr. Pincus' advice and keep doing what I have been doing, rather than try to change 3 years worth of habit..

 

[GBuck]

But, I have opted to train that way and I see how if you approach everything from strictly a self-defense stance, Rob's method does make more sense.

DING! DING! DING!

This, whether people would like to admit, is the difference in a lot of this discussion.

 

[Rob377]

Someone showing you their reloads does nothing. It allows too much room for difference in skill levels to show through. Sure, you're fast. I congratulate you on that. However, when IIIII am in a defensive situation, yes, I want to get the gun back in the fight ASAP. However, if I'm doing it bullets forward I am adding variables, and adding variables adds room for a drop, etc.

You do your way, that's fine. You don't need to belittle someone for doing it a different way.

I haven't belittled anyone. If I have, it certainly wasn't my intention. People can reload however they please, it's still a semi-free country.

But if you're going to vehemently argue it's more efficient (and thus presumably faster) back it up.

 

[Roadie]

Someone showing you their reloads does nothing. It allows too much room for difference in skill levels to show through. Sure, you're fast. I congratulate you on that. However, when IIIII am in a defensive situation, yes, I want to get the gun back in the fight ASAP. However, if I'm doing it bullets forward I am adding variables, and adding variables adds room for a drop, etc.

You do your way, that's fine. You don't need to belittle someone for doing it a different way.

I may not be able to add much to the conversation, but I think I know why Rob advocates the 'bullets reward' method over the 'bullets forward'.

I took Rob's Combat Focus Shooting pistol course and the bullets to the rear method works best in conjunction with Rob's Critical Incident Reload or basically reloading from the high compressed ready position. With the gun held so close in to the chest, holding the mags like a can of beer works best, I found it incredibly clumsy to reload in the high compressed ready position and having my mags forward...I reload with the gun up, head up and sweep to my mags palm first, trying to do that same technique while having the gun in close just doesn't work.

I had a phenominal time and I think Rob's class made me a better daily carrier and a better shooter but I still don't reload Rob's way and continue to carry with mags forward. But, I have opted to train that way and I see how if you approach everything from strictly a self-defense stance, Rob's method does make more sense.

A guy I shoot IDPA with on a monthly basis, he shoots and reloads bullets reward and he posts great times and great scores.

Great post. Thanks for the input.

Frankly I don't care about how fast I reload in a competition, I care about how easy it is for me to reload in a stress situation, under duress, possibly in tight quarters, etc. Your post helped clarify that.

 

[Roadie]

I haven't belittled anyone. If I have, it certainly wasn't my intention. People can reload however they please, it's still a semi-free country.

But if you're going to vehemently argue it's more efficient (and thus presumably faster) back it up.

Wow, what part of "IT WORKS FOR ME" are you having trouble grasping?

 

[Rob377]

Wow, what part of "IT WORKS FOR ME" are you having trouble grasping?

But how WELL does it work, as measured by how quickly you can get your gun back in the fight?

We're right back to defining "works"

 

[GBuck]

But if you're going to vehemently argue it's more efficient (and thus presumably faster) back it up.

I haven't said it is faster over all. I can achieve nowhere near the speeds you have, although this is a large part due to lack of practicing as you have. What I can tell you is that my method involves less intricate motions and better hold on my instruments and will result in less chance of mistake under a HIGH stress situation. (I'm talkin an actual shooter situation with real bullets hitting the wall behind you)

 

[Roadie]

I haven't said it is faster over all. I can achieve nowhere near the speeds you have, although this is a large part due to lack of practicing as you have. What I can tell you is that my method involves less intricate motions and better hold on my instruments and will result in less chance of mistake under a HIGH stress situation. (I'm talkin an actual shooter situation with real bullets hitting the wall behind you)

Exactly. And as pointed out above, "rearward" keeps the hand close to the body, with no twisting of the wrist, in a close quarters situation.

With our preference, I can pull the mag out, slide it along my side, over my stomach, up my chest, into the magwell, all without twisting my wrist.

Using "forward", at some point you HAVE to twist your wrist..

 

[David Rose]

What is it about rotating your wrist that bothers you? Do you rotate the gun inboard or keep the gun vertical? If you don't "twist" at some point you have to contort the rest of your body to get the mag in. If you needed to unlock a door in an emergency would you "twist" your wrist or rotate your entire body around the key? Last I checked the shortest distance between two points is a straight line not an arc or some type of contour following path.

 

[GBuck]

Last I checked the shortest distance between two points is a straight line not an arc or some type of contour following path.

Finally something we agree on, which is why you shouldn't want to have to flip your magazine. You cant your gun toward the magazine while you are bringing the mag up.

 

[esrice]

Using opposite techniques, and being the ones who started this whole mess , it looks like GBuck and I need to make a trip down to lovemywoods' to get this on video.

I don't know if it will "prove" anything substantial, but it will at least give folks some idea of the technique GBuck is talking about.

Then we can all get back to arguing.

 

[GBuck]

Using opposite techniques, and being the ones who started this whole mess , it looks like GBuck and I need to make a trip down to lovemywoods' to get this on video.

I don't know if it will "prove" anything substantial, but it will at least give folks some idea of the technique GBuck is talking about.

Then we can all get back to arguing.

You're driving!!! ( You do know the way, after all. )

 

[bwframe]

Using opposite techniques, and being the ones who started this whole mess , it looks like GBuck and I need to make a trip down to lovemywoods' to get this on video.

I don't know if it will "prove" anything substantial, but it will at least give folks some idea of the technique GBuck is talking about.

Then we can all get back to arguing.

You're driving!!! ( You do know the way, after all. )

With all due respect, I'm not really concerned about what you guys or any other average shooter does. I am looking for some video of a professional advocating bullets to the rear merits. Lots of folks carry in what I would consider foolish manner. Lots of folks don't even carry a backup mag.

I have been blessed to have started out with instruction by professionals. All of my instructors advocate bullets to the front. I am certainly open to differing ideas, but they need to show how the ideas are better than conventional wisdom.

Just because it "works" for some people is not a selling factor. When you are advocating doing the opposite of the fastest professionals in the world, you need to back it up with proof. A slingshot may "work" for self defense, but that doesn't make it a good choice.

 

[esrice]

With all due respect, I'm not really concerned about what you guys or any other average shooter does. I am looking for some video of a professional advocating bullets to the rear merits.

So far I've only been able to find one (Pincus, above).

The video we would create wouldn't be an effort to show how either technique is "better" than the other. It would simply be to give folks in this thread a clearer understanding of what each side is talking about.

I think we can all agree at this point that "bullets forward" is the current standard. This is seen by the number of professionals that advocate for the technique, and by the poll in this thread.

Having personally seen GBuck demonstrate his "bullets rearward" technique, I think it would benefit everyone here to see exactly what he's talking about.

 

[OneBadV8]

So far I've only been able to find one (Pincus, above).

The video we would create wouldn't be an effort to show how either technique is "better" than the other. It would simply be to give folks in this thread a clearer understanding of what each side is talking about.

I think we can all agree at this point that "bullets forward" is the current standard. This is seen by the number of professionals that advocate for the technique, and by the poll in this thread.

Having personally seen GBuck demonstrate his "bullets rearward" technique, I think it would benefit everyone here to see exactly what he's talking about.

You guys should demonstrate with 6 rounds in a mag and shoot at the dueling tree with multiple mags each so you are sort of pressured to do a fast reload.

Or some other manner that will force a quick reload under semi-induced stress.

 

[netsecurity]

I've been doing some testing, and I don't think the most important thing is speed. Bullets facing rear requires the hand to wrap around the mag, verses bullets forward you get the index finger forward, and the palm under the magazine to push it in. With practice I'm certain either way could be equally fast. I believe the issue is reliability. If you push a magazine up using the bullets back method, the pinky is at the bottom of the mag instead of the palm, and you can't lock the magazine in solidly. With bullets back, your palm gets under the magazine and can SLAM it in every time, and clearly this is the only way to practice and get reliable results. End of discussion in my mind. The people with bullets forward are faster because they practice that way, because it is the only way worth practicing.

 

[esrice]

Or some other manner that will force a quick reload under semi-induced stress.

I was thinking more like GBuck standing there going "Hi, I'm GBuck and this is how I reload with the bullets facing to the rear".

Reloads

"I prefer this method because of Reasons A, B, and C."

Then we could post it here and argue more.

Or hell, I could even try his technique and see what happens!

 

[bigcraig]

Well, this thread has gone places!

I am a bullets forward kinda guy, always have been. When asked my advice on the subject, I explain why I do, the vodoo, I do so well. Then I tell folks they are clearly free to carry the mags in any way they feel is more comfortable for themselves.

And thats OK with me.

 

[Rob377]

With all due respect, I'm not really concerned about what you guys or any other average shooter does. I am looking for some video of a professional advocating bullets to the rear merits. Lots of folks carry in what I would consider foolish manner. Lots of folks don't even carry a backup mag.

I have been blessed to have started out with instruction by professionals. All of my instructors advocate bullets to the front. I am certainly open to differing ideas, but they need to show how the ideas are better than conventional wisdom.

Just because it "works" for some people is not a selling factor. When you are advocating doing the opposite of the fastest professionals in the world, you need to back it up with proof. A slingshot may "work" for self defense, but that doesn't make it a good choice.

(completely off the topic of reloads and on to one of language)

this touches on a common gun board cliché. "X works for me" with no indication of how well or poorly it works.

The guy that says his hipoint, condition 3, in an ankle holster "works for him" as a carry rig. - By "works" he means what, exactly? The gun doesn't spontaneously combust and leave him an amputee?

The guy that says the cup and saucer grip "works" for him - by "works" he means he can keep 60% of his shots on paper at 7yds slow fire?

The guy that bought X gun and it "works for him" - by "works" he means what? He put half a box of ammo through it and stuck it in the safe for 10yrs?

"X works for me" standing by itself is an empty, meaningless phrase that tells us absolutely nothing about how well or poorly X functions in its intended purpose.

 

[David Rose]

Hey I hear the cup and saucer grip feels really really natural. (I think that's my favorite proof of concept line)