Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[esrice]

I've always wondered why efficiency and speed seem to be mutually exclusive to some.

Oh they aren't. Not always. Speed is indeed a factor of efficiency.

But there are times when something may take a bit more time, but be overall a more efficient route to take, due to other factors like reliability, consistency, etc.

 

[esrice]

Speed AND consistency. A flubbed reload usually means losing.

Exactly. (or dying)

 

[David Rose]

Oh they aren't. Not always. Speed is indeed a factor of efficiency.

But there are times when something may take a bit more time, but be overall a more efficient route to take, due to other factors like reliability, consistency, etc.

A perfect example is the way you pull the gun out of a holster. Some will recommend getting your last three fingers under the gun and start pulling up before you get a solid grip on the gun. The idea being that this is faster. I get a full grip on the gun in the holster because although slower it is more reliable/consistent/less likely to be dropped or taken away. This is a situation where compromise has to be made. And being less of a gamer than you might think I choose the slower way because self deffence is my primary interest, not match score.
This is why I find the forward/reward reload question so odd. One choice has speed, efficiency, reliability, and consistency. The other has a kind of efficiency of motion maybe? To me it's a no brainier. No compromise nesasary.

 

[esrice]

A perfect example is the way you pull the gun out of a holster. Some will recommend getting your last three fingers under the gun and start pulling up before you get a solid grip on the gun. The idea being that this is faster. I get a full grip on the gun in the holster because although slower it is more reliable/consistent/less likely to be dropped or taken away. This is a situation where compromise has to be made. And being less of a gamer than you might think I choose the slower way because self deffence is my primary interest, not match score.

Completely agree. Great example.

 

[HICKMAN]

IDPA Fast drill, bullets forward, with vest. Thumbs on both sides sweep vest away going for gun, then mag.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubqWMgxQt6k[/ame]

 

[esrice]

Rob Pincus is one instructor that carries "bullets rearward". I PM'd him asking for some clarification, and he gave his permission for me to re-print his response here for everyone.

First, not sure what you mean by "tactical reload".. lots of people use that to mean different things. If you mean Topping off the gun between fights, don't worry so much about it... that is a BETWEEN FIGHTS thing so it is isn't critical, much less "with retention" as the game crowd worries about so much.

Topping the gun off after engaging an enemy has it's place as a tactic, but most CCWers worry wayyyyyy too much about it. If you carry spare mags, the emergency reload is much more important to practice.

That said, if you have been carrying bullets forward for a while and have lots of reps that way, I DO NOT recommend trying to change the way you carry. The time gain in regard to slide-lock/emergency reloads isn't big enough to justify the switch. But, for a blank slate, bullets to the rear is the way to go.

Here's the technique:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Rv8IU2tFk

Thanks!

-Rob

 

[GBuck]

Rob's video puts it more eloquently than I ever could have hoped to.

 

[Rob377]

Except he doesn't explain why bullets backward is better, in the Pm or video. He certainly doesn't demonstrate any advantages to it. He just says stick with what you already do.

He then proceeds to do a slow reload. As mentioned above, maybe slow is "good enough", but personally, I'm not interested in "good enough." As noted above, if you don't care about speed, you can duct tape the mag in your butt crack and it'll still "work"

 

[esrice]

As noted above, if you don't care about speed, you can duct tape the mag in your butt crack and it'll still "work"

Yeah but it isn't very efficient. Trying it while moving is even more difficult, and the duct tape hurts.

 

[GBuck]

Yeah but it isn't very efficient. Trying it while moving is even more difficult, and the duct tape hurts.

Aren't you glad I got ya to stop doing that!

 

[Rob377]

Yeah but it isn't very efficient. Trying it while moving is even more difficult, and the duct tape hurts.

speaking from experience?? (I kid, I kid)

 

[esrice]

speaking from experience?? (I kid, I kid)

I did it for YOU Rob! Only you!

 

[esrice]

I will say this: the concealability factor is FANTASTIC.

 

[Rob377]

I did it for YOU Rob! Only you!

 

[Rob Pincus]

Gbuck, referencing an earlier post where you said you do bullets forward because it was how you were taught, you shouldn't do anything just because that is the way you were taught. Everything that any instructor teachers should have to pass a Critical Thinking and Skepticism test... if you don't understand the real reason, other than "that's what I was taught", ASK THEM WHY so that you can understand it. Rob337, same to you.., USMC Training doesn't make it magic.. it is just what some guys taught you.. WHY?

Meanwhile, I am amazed at some of the stuff in this thread... There is no absolute "way"... reference the above comment to Gbuck.

Obviously, I don't think anyone should use Rearward carry just because I said so.... Stop reading, put your hand in your pocket. Do it.. then come back>>>>













do it again.









Okay, did you flail your elbow out? Did you rotate your hand so that your fingers were in front of your thumb? Of course not (to both)... the whole bullets forward thing is a Learned Technique, not an intuitive movement. Of course, it can be fast with practice.. but bullets rearward can too.. and it works with what your hand and arm do naturally around your waist. Showing videos of the most practiced shooters in the world doing staged/choreographed bullet forward reloads to prove the efficacy of the technique is kind of retarded... I could show you figure skaters moving quickly over ice ... would that "prove" that you should all triple-axle around your driveways in January ??


It is clear that, if you have ZERO REPS, bullets facing backwards is more bio-mechanically efficient. It is also clear that you do not NEED to "index bullets" in your mag if you always put only loaded mags in your carriers and always put them in the same way. Furthermore, you can discern the direction of a mag coming out of 'loose carry', like a pocket, without feeling the bullets, the shape of modern mags are decidedly indicative of direction. Lastly, you MIGHT way to orient your index finger along the mag so that you can more easily guide it into the mag well... but, it doesn't need to be wrapped over the top bullet in the mag.

Bullets rearward allows a more natural movement of the arm/hand and allows you to use your picky finger to "hook" the baseplate better on most magazine designs when removing it from the carrier... it also allows reloading closer to the body, where you have more control and strength.

In regard to the up/down issue when carrying horizontally, Up is equal to forward and Down is equal to rearward.

-RJP

 

[GBuck]

Gbuck, you shouldn't do anything just because that is the way you were taught. Everything that any instructor teachers should have to pass a Critical Thinking and Skepticism test... if you don't understand the real reason, other than "that's what I was taught", ASK THEM WHY so that you can understand it.

Haha... I do know why I do it that way. I just don't know why the instructor decided to teach it to me that way. I do it that way because it gives me a smoother draw, less manipulation and a more secure way to handle the magazine. Thanks for joining the convo though! Maybe you can articulate answers to some questions better than I can being an instructor.

 

[Rob Pincus]

Well, my premise here is that it only "gives you a smoother draw" because that is the way you learned it.

Which, btw, is fine. As I said, given any significant number of reps with bullets forward, we don't recommend changing. The benefit is clear, but it doesn't outweigh the time/effort/energy required to re-learn reloads.

-Rob

 

[Rob377]

Well, my day job these days is attorney, so I think I have the critical thinking and a healthy dose of skepticism. The old saying about the first thing they teach you in law school - If your mother says she loves you, get a second opinion.

If bullets backward is so much more "biomechanically efficient," than why do virtually no world class competitors use it? If the benefit is so clear, why have none of the bullets backward advocates actually demonstrated the better biomechanical efficiency with a faster reload? I've yet to see any proof of this supposed biochemical efficiency, and critical thinking and skepticism require proof to overcome.

With the exception of the Max Michel and Dave Sevigney videos, everyone else that posted vids is just a weekend competitor. NOT the "most practiced shooters in the world"

Reaching into your pocket isn't the same thing as grabbing a mag, unless of course you intend to grab something oblong shaped in that pocket and stick it into a hole that is the same size.

I might point out that showing weekend competitors using the technique effectivly is a less "retarded" form of proof than the largely unrelated act of reaching into one's pocket.

So that doesn't really overcome the critical thinking and skepticim barriers.

I've yet to see an indexed bullet backwards, much less a non indexed "beer can" bullets backwards reload that is fast or efficient.

 

[rvb]

Showing videos of the most practiced shooters in the world doing staged/choreographed bullet forward reloads to prove the efficacy of the technique is kind of retarded... I could show you figure skaters moving quickly over ice ... would that "prove" that you should all triple-axle around your driveways in January ??

Huh? So from watching pro skaters the conclusion I should draw is to wear my skates backwards, because I'm not a pro skater?

As stated earlier, the timer and matches provide pressure. Any technique works if we allow ourselves several seconds to do the reloads. Hence the non-retarded relevance.

It is clear that, if you have ZERO REPS, bullets facing backwards is more bio-mechanically efficient. It is also clear that you do not NEED to "index bullets" in your mag if you always put only loaded mags in your carriers and always put them in the same way.

The reason for indexing on the nose of the bullet has nothing to do with getting them out of the pouch, it has to do with getting the best possible alignment with the mag well.

Should we be basing out technique on ZERO REPS? Do you tell students to go home and never practice?

you MIGHT way [want?] to orient your index finger along the mag so that you can more easily guide it into the mag well... but, it doesn't need to be wrapped over the top bullet in the mag.

Agree, it shouldn't be wrapped over the mag, just the tip of the index finger to the nose of the top bullet.

Bullets rearward allows a more natural movement of the arm/hand and allows you to use your picky finger to "hook" the baseplate better on most magazine designs when removing it from the carrier... it also allows reloading closer to the body, where you have more control and strength.

Maybe this is the disconnect. I don't see getting the mag out of the carrier to be the part that needs natural movement; that's the easy part. I see getting the mag into the gun as the critical part of the reload, and the part that needs to be the most natural. THAT is why we are pushing bullets forward; it leads to better alignment of the mag w/ the magwell. The vast majority of all flubbed reloads have to do with getting the mag into the gun.

From a relaxed stance, If I just bring my hands into my "work space" by bending my elbows, the bullets fwd allows the front of the mag to be pointed into my palm which makes it more naturally positioned to go into the gun.

It seems some are hung up on speed vs tactical vs slide lock reloads. It doesn't matter. Getting the mag into the gun is the same problem in all these cases.

-rvb

 

[David Rose]

Rob, it seems like both techniques would be learned techniques. You state that one works better for those with no practice. Is that the only virtue worth considering?
You state they can both be done at the same speed, several of us have been looking for evidence of this assertion without any luck.
Any time you think about reloading before you do it you could call it staged/choreographed. You seem to be implying that practice is some how cheating. Are there times when a technique that requires more practice is worth the extra practice or do we just assume that people are lazy and give them what is easy to teach?

I appreciate and respect your opinions. Thank you for joining the conversation.