Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[David Rose]

Using opposite techniques, and being the ones who started this whole mess , it looks like GBuck and I need to make a trip down to lovemywoods' to get this on video.

I don't know if it will "prove" anything substantial, but it will at least give folks some idea of the technique GBuck is talking about.

Then we can all get back to arguing.

Don't forget the shot timer.

 

[Roadie]

Using opposite techniques, and being the ones who started this whole mess , it looks like GBuck and I need to make a trip down to lovemywoods' to get this on video.

I don't know if it will "prove" anything substantial, but it will at least give folks some idea of the technique GBuck is talking about.

Then we can all get back to arguing.

I know someone else that would come along and operate the camera..

Ahem... hint hint hint

 

[Roadie]

(completely off the topic of reloads and on to one of language)

this touches on a common gun board cliché. "X works for me" with no indication of how well or poorly it works.

The guy that says his hipoint, condition 3, in an ankle holster "works for him" as a carry rig. - By "works" he means what, exactly? The gun doesn't spontaneously combust and leave him an amputee?

The guy that says the cup and saucer grip "works" for him - by "works" he means he can keep 60% of his shots on paper at 7yds slow fire?

The guy that bought X gun and it "works for him" - by "works" he means what? He put half a box of ammo through it and stuck it in the safe for 10yrs?

"X works for me" standing by itself is an empty, meaningless phrase that tells us absolutely nothing about how well or poorly X functions in its intended purpose.

Hey I hear the cup and saucer grip feels really really natural. (I think that's my favorite proof of concept line)

So, again, what you guys are saying is that I should not use the method that I have practiced with for 3 years, that I am comfortable with, that, for ME, has less "steps" and "motion", but rather...

I should change what I do and practice for in the event of a self defense situation, because what YOU use in "competition" is "faster" and works better for YOU, therefore it is the only right way...

Does that about sum it up?

Gotcha

 

[rvb]

So, again, what you guys are saying is that I should not use the method that I have practiced with for 3 years, that I am comfortable with, that, for ME, has less "steps" and "motion", but rather...

I should change what I do and practice for in the event of a self defense situation, because what YOU use in "competition" is "faster" and works better for YOU, therefore it is the only right way...

Does that about sum it up?

Gotcha

So you believe your technique should never evolve?

I've unlearned a lot of bad techniques. I once had a "sweeping" draw vs pushing out. I once gripped w/ the thumbs crossed vs thumbs fwd. I didn't used to index the mag for the reload. I could go on an on. I'm willing to try new techniques, and invest the time/effort into engraining them. I've tried a lot of techniques that didn't prove to be better (improve accuracy, speed, or consistency), and discarded them (and I don't mean tried them for a couple hours, I mean I put lots of lead into the berm and dozens of hours dryfiring them).

It IS possible to engrain new techniques. "The way I've always done it" is not a valid justification.

I'm not saying do it because I (or Rob or David or Travis freakin Tomasie) say so, I'm saying do it because the TIMER says it gets me back in the fight faster and more consistently (because I think "feel" goes out the window in high stress. I know it does in 'semi-stress' in matches).

-rvb

 

[Rob377]

So, again, what you guys are saying is that I should not use the method that I have practiced with for 3 years, that I am comfortable with, that, for ME, has less "steps" and "motion", but rather...

I should change what I do and practice for in the event of a self defense situation, because what YOU use in "competition" is "faster" and works better for YOU, therefore it is the only right way...

Does that about sum it up?

Gotcha

Nope, not even close.

I'll quote myself for clarity -

...
Bullets backwards is a slower technique. If you like slow, and slow is good enough for you, have at it.

...

.... People can reload however they please, it's still a semi-free country.

...

So, to sum up, you should do whatever makes you happy.

But, with that said, considering that no one seems to be able to reload as quickly/efficiently using bullets backward as they can forward, I'm going to continue to say that YES, the latter technique is in fact better than the former.

 

[Roadie]

So you believe your technique should never evolve?

I've unlearned a lot of bad techniques. I once had a "sweeping" draw vs pushing out. I once gripped w/ the thumbs crossed vs thumbs fwd. I didn't used to index the mag for the reload. I could go on an on. I'm willing to try new techniques, and invest the time/effort into engraining them. I've tried a lot of techniques that didn't prove to be better (improve accuracy, speed, or consistency), and discarded them (and I don't mean tried them for a couple days, I mean I put lots of lead into the berm and hundreds of hours dryfiring them).

It IS possible to engrain new techniques. "The way I've always done it" is not a valid justification.

I'm not saying do it because I (or Rob or David or Travis freakin Tomasie) say so, I'm saying do it because the TIMER says it gets me back in the fight faster and more consistently (because I think "feel" goes out the window in high stress. I know it does in 'semi-stress' in matches).

-rvb

No, I am certainly open to trying new techniques. I have only been carrying for 3 years, and have only had two classes, and am certainly not arrogant enough to think I know it all already.

I have tried the "forward" method, and I can't get used to it. So for me, I think I am better off using what I am used to. (As Mr Pincus discussed here, and in his video)

Nope, not even close.

I'll quote myself for clarity -




So, to sum up, you should do whatever makes you happy.

But, with that said, considering that no one seems to be able to reload as quickly/efficiently using bullets backward as they can forward, I'm going to continue to say that YES, the latter technique is in fact better than the former.

"Seems" is the operative word here
Again, I am not taking into account just speed, for me the "bullets back" method allows ME to keep the mag closer to my body in the event of a close quarters situation, without turning my wrist. Economy of motion, arms in tights, directly into the mag well, to me seems to be more effective for self defense. Maybe it is MEASURABLY slower my way, but is it less effective? Is it less secure? I don't think so. I think my method addresses "D:All of the Above" better...

 

[Hop]

I had always carried the spare mag in a pocket so hadn't ever thought about this until recently when I started taking some classes. When I ordered my spare mag carriers I was asked which way I wanted the bullets to face. I thought it out in my mind thinking about both ergonomics and economy of motion and picked rearwards. THEN I started using these in class and ended up switching to bullets forward for one reason. Looking the mag into the mag well palm up. Palm down, hand over the mag was harder to see the mag going into the mag well.

Neither fwd or bckwrd felt any faster to me but fwd got the mags into the gun more reliably when I started pushing things and running drills against a shot timer.

It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[rhino]

Again, I am not taking into account just speed, for me the "bullets back" method allows ME to keep the mag closer to my body in the event of a close quarters situation, without turning my wrist. Economy of motion, arms in tights, directly into the mag well, to me seems to be more effective for self defense. Maybe it is MEASURABLY slower my way, but is it less effective? Is it less secure? I don't think so. I think my method addresses "D:All of the Above" better...

I'm not attacking you, but I have a sincere question that is only peripherally related to how you choose to reload. Why would you try to do a reload if you in situation where someone is close enough to touch you?

 

[Rob377]

No, I am certainly open to trying new techniques. I have only been carrying for 3 years, and have only had two classes, and am certainly not arrogant enough to think I know it all already.

I have tried the "forward" method, and I can't get used to it. So for me, I think I am better off using what I am used to. (As Mr Pincus discussed here, and in his video)



"Seems" is the operative word here
Again, I am not taking into account just speed, for me the "bullets back" method allows ME to keep the mag closer to my body in the event of a close quarters situation, without turning my wrist. Economy of motion, arms in tights, directly into the mag well, to me seems to be more effective for self defense. Maybe it is MEASURABLY slower my way, but is it less effective? Is it less secure? I don't think so. I think my method addresses "D:All of the Above" better...

You know, you can do all those things bullets forward too. (If economy of motion doesn't get you any speed, what's the point?)
Go back and look at Rob Vogel's reload. You can do all of those things bullets forward, and be faster. He does all that.

Every match weekend, there are at least 2 or more situations where I'm against a wall or barricade or barrels and have to reload in nice and tight.

So, bullets backward still loses.

 

[Roadie]

I'm not attacking you, but I have a sincere question that is only peripherally related to how you choose to reload. Why would you try to do a reload if you in situation where someone is close enough to touch you?

This is where I admit my lack of training..
Hmm. So, forgive me for answering a question with a question, but.. if I were out of rounds, and an attacker was in close, why wouldn't I reload?

Perhaps my thinking is wrong on this..

 

[Roadie]

You know, you can do all those things bullets forward too. (If economy of motion doesn't get you any speed, what's the point?)
Go back and look at Rob Vogel's reload. You can do all of those things bullets forward, and be faster. He does all that.

Every match weekend, there are at least 2 or more situations where I'm against a wall or barricade or barrels and have to reload in nice and tight.

So, bullets backward still loses.

The only difference between our points of view is that I have never said your preference "loses"...

I still can't figure out how turning your wrist(bullets forward) is preferable to not turning your wrist(bullets rearward)..

 

[Rob377]

This is where I admit my lack of training..
Hmm. So, forgive me for answering a question with a question, but.. if I were out of rounds, and an attacker was in close, why wouldn't I reload?

Perhaps my thinking is wrong on this..

Because if they're that close and your gun is empty, you aren't going to get reloaded and on target fast enough to keep from getting bludgeoned/stabbed/body-slammed/tickled.

 

[Roadie]

Because if they're that close and your gun is empty, you aren't going to get reloaded and on target fast enough to keep from getting bludgeoned/stabbed/body-slammed/tickled.

OK, makes sense..

Believe me, I am not so stuck in my ways in my short time carrying that I cannot be swayed. THIS point, I see..

 

[esrice]

Why would you try to do a reload if you in situation where someone is close enough to touch you?

Close quarters doesn't always have to be mean that people are close. Maybe he's reloading while tucked up behind a small piece of cover.

 

[Rob377]

The only difference between our points of view is that I have never said your preference "loses"...

I still can't figure out how turning your wrist(bullets forward) is preferable to not turning your wrist(bullets rearward)..

and I can't figure why anyone would care about how much their wrist turns when getting the gun back into action as fast as possible is what matters.

It's easy to get lost in weeds on peripheral stuff like that. The only reason that how much this body part or that body part moves matters at all is based on the premise that wasted movement is wasted time (slow). The key thing here is wasted movement. Not all "extra" movement is wasted. A wrist movement that allows you to more quickly and consistently align the mag with the magwell is not wasted.

 

[HICKMAN]

I still can't figure out how turning your wrist(bullets forward) is preferable to not turning your wrist(bullets rearward)..

how are you not turning your wrist? still looking for a clear video demonstrating your method... please!!!

 

[WileECoyotee]

I haven't belittled anyone. If I have, it certainly wasn't my intention. People can reload however they please, it's still a semi-free country.

But if you're going to vehemently argue it's more efficient (and thus presumably faster) back it up.

Will you please post a video of the Original Drill ?

A Tactical Reload , not dropping the mag , but using one hand to catch and replace the new mag and put the old mag back into a pouch or pocket .

This whole argument was started using this drill and I would like to see your way with bullets forward then to the rear .

Thank You

 

[esrice]

how are you not turning your wrist? still looking for a clear video demonstrating your method... please!!!

This is what I think GBuck can provide. Then everyone would have a better understanding of what he's talking about.

 

[WileECoyotee]

Esrice was what I posted as far as Tactical reload correct ?

It seems that is what I remembered and it has now gone from a Tactical situation to a speed shooting match .

I thought you were doing a tactical reload and that the difference between forward or back was giving you trouble manipulating both magazines ?

 

[esrice]

Esrice was what I posted as far as Tactical reload correct ?

It seems that is what I remembered and it has now gone from a Tactical situation to a speed shooting match .

I thought you were doing a tactical reload and that the difference between forward or back was giving you trouble ?

Yes I brought up that I was curious how the "bullets rearward" guys perform a tactical reload.