Spare pistol mag: Bullets to the front? Or to the rear?

[esrice]

Rob Pincus thanks for joining the conversation.

I started this thread because I reload from "bullets forward" and GBuck reloads from "bullets rearward". While discussing reloads at work one day, we thought it would make for an interesting thread.

We were right.

I'm not above putting long- or widely-held techniques under scrutiny. I think its a good exercise.

I appreciate your input.

 

[Rob Pincus]

Esrice, in fact, it is imperative that we do so.... otherwise, we just stagnate.

1911's, the weaver shooting position, double taps and , yes: "your mags are backwards", ..... It is time to move on.

-RJP

 

[Rob Pincus]

Rob, it seems like both techniques would be learned techniques. You state that one works better for those with no practice. Is that the only virtue worth considering?
You state they can both be done at the same speed, several of us have been looking for evidence of this assertion without any luck.
Any time you think about reloading before you do it you could call it staged/choreographed. You seem to be implying that practice is some how cheating. Are there times when a technique that requires more practice is worth the extra practice or do we just assume that people are lazy and give them what is easy to teach?

GREAT question... I didn't mean to state that they are equally "fast" or "easy"... if I did. With practice, especially in staged situations (mags staged off the body and the gun held out in front of the body), bullets forward *might* be able to equal the potential of bullets backwards, but I absolutely think bullets backwards is more efficient and potentially faster over a wider set of circumstances (including, most importantly, mags against the body and gun held close to the body).
The issue of what to teach has nothing to do with laziness, it has to do with maximizing limited resources. Everyone has limited time, money, range access, interest and ability.... so, we default to teaching the things that are more in line with how the body naturally does things.

-RJP

 

[David Rose]

Rob, you speak of the "potential" of the bullets rearward method. Is there any resource you are aware of where this potential is on display? I told Esrice earlier I find that the technique breaks down when I try to push the speed. There are some motions that seem very natural at slow speed but become impractical when sped up. For instance walking makes all the sense in the world until you speed it up. Then it gets kind of awkward. So we start running. I think there may be a similar relationship between these two techniques.

 

[rhino]

I tried drawing my mag while sitting in my Jeep.

I didn't see any difference between bullets forward vs rearward.

I must be doing something wrong?

Dude! DUDE! You're not doing anything "wrong."

I was just curious how grabbing a mag would work if you didn't allow your elbow to flare to the side at least a little if your back was against some kind of obstacle.

 

[duffman0286]

i do pointing back only because that seems more natural for me..... but if you want to what you do with a mag with out thinking try just removing mags from your weapon and retaining them .... look at them and then your get the idea with way to carry them

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

The spare mags should have the rounds facing forward. This is for a number of reasons.

When you index the gun properly for a reload it helps with consistency.

When you grip the mag properly for a reload it helps with speed.

When you do a tactical reload it helps because you can splay your fingers, thus accomplishing the reload much easier and much more smoothly.

It is more consistent in every way.

It is faster because there is more economy of motion.

 

[GBuck]

I think some people need to reassess the definition of the phrase, "economy of motion".

 

[HardTargetFirearms]

Can we upload video here at all? I have a good 5-7 second video clip of a speed reload being performed at about half speed, with the bullets forward. it shows the economy of motion very nicely.

 

[HICKMAN]

if I drop the mag into my hand and drop the hand straight down to my side... the bullets face forward.

 

[HICKMAN]

can't we get a single INGOer to post a video showing why they think rearward is better?

 

[Roadie]

if I drop the mag into my hand and drop the hand straight down to my side... the bullets face forward.

When I drop my mag into my hand, and drop that hand straight down, the bullets face rearward..

Why does one way have to be "right" and another "wrong"? Isn't this like arguing different "stances"? Whats works for one, doesn't work for another, and vice versa..

 

[Roadie]

can't we get a single INGOer to post a video showing why they think rearward is better?

Again, better? Maybe maybe not.. More comfortable for me? Yes.

Rob Pincus' video has been posted at least twice, and he has come here to discuss it himself..

 

[Rob377]

When I drop my mag into my hand, and drop that hand straight down, the bullets face rearward..

Why does one way have to be "right" and another "wrong"? Isn't this like arguing different "stances"? Whats works for one, doesn't work for another, and vice versa..

Define "works"

As said before, taping a mag in your butt crack might "work". Horse and buggies "work". An Old 386 computer? yeah, it might "work". I can also use a big rock in place of a hammer, and it'll "work".

Mr. Pincus, who does gun stuff for a living and charges people significant sums for it, still hasn't offered any proof other than "pincus says so". Maybe he won't offer more because we're not paying him, and that's certainly his prerogative. (i certainly don't hand out legal advice for free) But it is not especially convincing.

 

[GBuck]

Yeah, Rob, and I still haven't seen any "proof" that your way is faster either... I mean, every argument for facing forward can just the same be made for facing rearward.

 

[Roadie]

Define "works"

As said before, taping a mag in your butt crack might "work". Horse and buggies "work". An Old 386 computer? yeah, it might "work". I can also use a big rock in place of a hammer, and it'll "work".

Mr. Pincus, who does gun stuff for a living and charges people significant sums for it, still hasn't offered any proof other than "pincus says so". Maybe he won't offer more because we're not paying him, and that's certainly his prerogative. (i certainly don't hand out legal advice for free) But it is not especially convincing.

Hyperbole much?

"Works" = what feels most comfortable and natural for me.. your comparisons are ridiculous.

I don't have to rotate my wrist like I do in the "bullets forward" method, so to me, it feels more natural with less motion.

Again, "TO ME". And again, why are people so caught up in their method being "right" and the other "wrong"?

 

[GBuck]

Again, "TO ME". And again, why are people so caught up in their method being "right" and the other "wrong"?

BECAUSE YOU'RE WRONG. CONFORM TO THEIR WAYS! IT TAKES LESS MOVEMENT THEIR WAY! DUH!

 

[Rob377]

Getting the gun back in action faster is better. I'd think that point is noncontroversial. Ergo, techniques that allow you to do that are better than techniques that are slower, no matter how comfortable they might be.

Bullets backwards is a slower technique. If you like slow, and slow is good enough for you, have at it.

If you contend that it isn't slow, and is just as good or better, let's see some reloads.

 

[GBuck]

If you contend that it isn't slow, and is just as good or better, let's see some reloads.

Someone showing you their reloads does nothing. It allows too much room for difference in skill levels to show through. Sure, you're fast. I congratulate you on that. However, when IIIII am in a defensive situation, yes, I want to get the gun back in the fight ASAP. However, if I'm doing it bullets forward I am adding variables, and adding variables adds room for a drop, etc.

You do your way, that's fine. You don't need to belittle someone for doing it a different way.

 

[DustyDawg48]

I may not be able to add much to the conversation, but I think I know why Rob advocates the 'bullets reward' method over the 'bullets forward'.

I took Rob's Combat Focus Shooting pistol course and the bullets to the rear method works best in conjunction with Rob's Critical Incident Reload or basically reloading from the high compressed ready position. With the gun held so close in to the chest, holding the mags like a can of beer works best, I found it incredibly clumsy to reload in the high compressed ready position and having my mags forward...I reload with the gun up, head up and sweep to my mags palm first, trying to do that same technique while having the gun in close just doesn't work.

I had a phenominal time and I think Rob's class made me a better daily carrier and a better shooter but I still don't reload Rob's way and continue to carry with mags forward. But, I have opted to train that way and I see how if you approach everything from strictly a self-defense stance, Rob's method does make more sense.

A guy I shoot IDPA with on a monthly basis, he shoots and reloads bullets reward and he posts great times and great scores.