Snatching your gun from it's holster

[The Bubba Effect]

I would go out to the car and get a carbine.

 

[jeremy]

I would go out to the car and get a carbine.

Nothing quite like a Buttstroke to the head to correct someones malfunctions....

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Nothing quite like a Buttstroke to the head to correct someones malfunctions....

Buttstroke hell, if he took my pistol off my belt I'm not letting him within 100 yards.

 

[KG1]

Personally I don't see the need to disarm someone this way if your intention is to kill them with their own weapon.

If you are adept at being able to get behind someone then why waste all that time. Just pull a knife and go to work and be done with it.

 

[jeremy]

Personally I don't see the need to disarm someone this way if your intention is to kill them with their own weapon.

If you are adept at being able to get behind someone then why waste all that time. Just pull a knife and go to work and be done with it.

I think I suggested that....

 

[KG1]

I think I suggested that....

I thought I saw it in a movie.

 

[jeremy]

I thought I saw it in a movie.

No video...

1 of the Cardinal Rules of Deniability...

 

[Mackey]

I like the description here - good directions.... Reminds me of moves my father taught me (from his Judo experience learned during the Korean War ... anyway ....)
The element of surprise is what gives the "bad guy" the advantage here. No matter how tough you think you are, you can be sucker punched. The only way to prevent a maneuver like this from succeeding is to know exactly when it was going to happen.
We are not Chuck Norris! We can be disarmed!

 

[IndyBeerman]

I would elbow him in the face soon as his hand pushed my right arm away. After his nose was forcefully broken, i would proceed to walk away.

To late, fire arm is in his hand.

BUT...

A proper reverse head butt will destroy his nose and get you into position to regain the upper hand.

 

[Compatriot G]

I appreciate the OP's story and description of what happened to him. It caused me to think and actually try to see what I could or couldn't do. Perhaps it is time to have an INGO dojo session.

 

[iChokePeople]

To late, fire arm is in his hand.

BUT...

A proper reverse head butt will destroy his nose and get you into position to regain the upper hand.

Good thought, but if he's got even three brain cells, he's low, with good base, and his head is tucked against your back to avoid your head or your left elbow, if he misses the trap or you pull it free. Again, my experience is with trained grapplers and fighters, not as a gun grab. The main thing fighters will do against this is base to try to keep from getting tossed or attack the left arm, usually with a kimura. The problem in this scenario is that while you're using both arms to get that kimura, he's taking your gun.

I'll be at the gym in about an hour and try it, on both sides.

 

[jeremy]

To late, fire arm is in his hand.

BUT...

A proper reverse head butt will destroy his nose and get you into position to regain the upper hand.

If I was the jack wagon behind you and this was how I was going to attempt to disarm you...

I would either be Low with my head against your back, or if that is not an option. I would have my head pushing against yours so when you go to make your headbutt, as you pull your head back in preparation for the strike I can just simply take the sting out of your strike...

 

[jeremy]

Good thought, but if he's got even three brain cells, he's low, with good base, and his head is tucked against your back to avoid your head or your left elbow, if he misses the trap or you pull it free. Again, my experience is with trained grapplers and fighters, not as a gun grab. The main thing fighters will do against this is base to try to keep from getting tossed or attack the left arm, usually with a kimura. The problem in this scenario is that while you're using both arms to get that kimura, he's taking your gun.

I'll be at the gym in about an hour and try it, on both sides.

So looking forward to your review from this...

 

[iChokePeople]

So looking forward to your review from this...

OK, I spent quite a bit of time with this. Bottom line up front, in my testing, it usually worked.

Things to clarify: testing group contained no gunmen. I was the only one who even had on pants, a belt, and a real holster, everyone else was in fight shorts and a rashguard or tshirt. Guns weren't guns, they were training knives, padded ones that gave some resistance when pulled from a holster (if I was the victim) or from a belt tied around the waist with no belt loops, etc, for the others. So not exactly perfect conditions, but I think close enough to give some value. Also, everyone involved is a trained fighter/grappler/wrestler, which gives everyone some advantages on both sides, I guess, and probably sort of balance out.

We started with me being the attacker so each of them could both see what I was talking about and respond "blind". Then we switched all around and everyone tried all kinds of variations on everyone. Two people came late, which gave me a chance to try it on two people who had no idea what was going on. Probably not fair, because they were coming into a friendly environment and would have been at a very low 'state of alert'.

Lessons learned:

Using the entry I described, not the one the OP described, we were generally successful -- about 8/10. That number goes up if the attacker also has the option of using a takedown to spin the victim backward to the ground and continue taking it, but we discounted that as it would draw too much attention for some situations.

The most successful technique for escaping WITH your gun, in our testing, was for the victim to spin counterclockwise, pushing his right foot, and gun, away from the attacker, freeing his trapped left arm (which wasn't ALWAYS trapped...), and opening up the range and options. In the OP, the grip on the gun in a good holster and belt, presumably, stopped this, and that's plausible. With our cobbled together "gun/belt" the grip on the "gun" was the weak point. It was sometimes missed by the attacker, which lets the victim spin out, and sometimes even with a grip on the gun, the victim could still spin away... but generally without his gun. Mostly, if the attacker's initial move got him behind the victim with the right wrist/hand/arm grabbed and the left momentarily trapped, and if his first grab for the gun was accurate, he got the gun. Our 'attackers' were even more successful if the first grab with the right hand was NOT for the gun, but to quickly stabilize the position and get the victim off-balance, usually by controlling the hip, THEN getting the gun.

Also interesting, to me: AIWB is pretty much a deal-breaker for this particular gun grab, especially if there's a cover garment in the way to deal with. Even without it, the trapped(grabbed) right arm is in a good position to block the attacker's attempt to secure the gun. Nobody ever got my gun from AIWB, even when there was no cover garment. They could a hand on the grip sometimes, but my right forearm and elbow were in the way of taking it (quickly enough to work here...)

Anyway, that's what we saw.

Eta: oh, yes... We tried all kind of options for getting an edc-type knife into play. Not one single time was the knife brought into play without losing the gun and being in a compromised position. Everyone there spends a lot of time with knives. Also, on the kimura idea, not one single time did anyone get the kimura without losing the gun and being 'shot'. When the victim goes for the kimura or knife, he invariably loses the gun. With enough practice, could maybe be done (the knife more than the kimura...)

 

[jeremy]

OK, I spent quite a bit of time with this. Bottom line up front, in my testing, it usually worked.

Things to clarify: testing group contained no gunmen. I was the only one who even had on pants, a belt, and a real holster, everyone else was in fight shorts and a rashguard or tshirt. Guns weren't guns, they were training knives, padded ones that gave some resistance when pulled from a holster (if I was the victim) or from a belt tied around the waist with no belt loops, etc, for the others. So not exactly perfect conditions, but I think close enough to give some value. Also, everyone involved is a trained fighter/grappler/wrestler, which gives everyone some advantages on both sides, I guess, and probably sort of balance out.

We started with me being the attacker so each of them could both see what I was talking about and respond "blind". Then we switched all around and everyone tried all kinds of variations on everyone. Two people came late, which gave me a chance to try it on two people who had no idea what was going on. Probably not fair, because they were coming into a friendly environment and would have been at a very low 'state of alert'.

Lessons learned:

Using the entry I described, not the one the OP described, we were generally successful -- about 8/10. That number goes up if the attacker also has the option of using a takedown to spin the victim backward to the ground and continue taking it, but we discounted that as it would draw too much attention for some situations.

The most successful technique for escaping WITH your gun, in our testing, was for the victim to spin counterclockwise, pushing his right foot, and gun, away from the attacker, freeing his trapped left arm (which wasn't ALWAYS trapped...), and opening up the range and options. In the OP, the grip on the gun in a good holster and belt, presumably, stopped this, and that's plausible. With our cobbled together "gun/belt" the grip on the "gun" was the weak point. It was sometimes missed by the attacker, which lets the victim spin out, and sometimes even with a grip on the gun, the victim could still spin away... but generally without his gun. Mostly, if the attacker's initial move got him behind the victim with the right wrist/hand/arm grabbed and the left momentarily trapped, and if his first grab for the gun was accurate, he got the gun. Our 'attackers' were even more successful if the first grab with the right hand was NOT for the gun, but to quickly stabilize the position and get the victim off-balance, usually by controlling the hip, THEN getting the gun.

Also interesting, to me: AIWB is pretty much a deal-breaker for this particular gun grab, especially if there's a cover garment in the way to deal with. Even without it, the trapped(grabbed) right arm is in a good position to block the attacker's attempt to secure the gun. Nobody ever got my gun from AIWB, even when there was no cover garment. They could a hand on the grip sometimes, but my right forearm and elbow were in the way of taking it (quickly enough to work here...)

Anyway, that's what we saw.

Eta: oh, yes... We tried all kind of options for getting an edc-type knife into play. Not one single time was the knife brought into play without losing the gun and being in a compromised position. Everyone there spends a lot of time with knives. Also, on the kimura idea, not one single time did anyone get the kimura without losing the gun and being 'shot'. When the victim goes for the kimura or knife, he invariably loses the gun. With enough practice, could maybe be done (the knife more than the kimura...)

Excellent write up!

I thought the kimura would be less than useful in this application, at least at my skill level. Looks like I need to ratchet up my knife training a little bit. Crying shame you are across the State from me.

On a side note, do you think having a BUG to go to instead of a knife would be useful from your observations?!

 

[Hayseed_40]

All hogwash. If I had that ninja suit from Pheneas and Ferb - I'd get you all.

 

[iChokePeople]

Excellent write up!

I thought the kimura would be less than useful in this application, at least at my skill level. Looks like I need to ratchet up my knife training a little bit. Crying shame you are across the State from me.

On a side note, do you think having a BUG to go to instead of a knife would be useful from your observations?!

We failed to play the off hand weapon as a gun, but I'd guess that you'd see very similar results to the knife, except that you'd be gun v gun at the end rather than gun v knife. The attacker usually get the gun very quickly. The natural reaction (well... Natural for trained wrestlers and grapplers, at least) of sinking your hips and trying to get some base actually HELPS the attacker if he didn't miss the grab. If he missed, it helps.

 

[iChokePeople]

All hogwash. If I had that ninja suit from Pheneas and Ferb - I'd get you all.

Probably true, we didn't bring any ninja suits. One guy was wearing Bright yellow muay Thai shorts, though...

 

[jeremy]

We failed to play the off hand weapon as a gun, but I'd guess that you'd see very similar results to the knife, except that you'd be gun v gun at the end rather than gun v knife. The attacker usually get the gun very quickly. The natural reaction (well... Natural for trained wrestlers and grapplers, at least) of sinking your hips and trying to get some base actually HELPS the attacker if he didn't miss the grab. If he missed, it helps.

Would be kinda neat to incorporate Air soft into this to see if the victim could actually get a stab/shot/strike in before being shot with the firearm... Something for me to play with when I go to AT this year...

 

[mrortega]

As an old Judo player, I thought of three or four counters to this move right off the top of my head. All of them would end up with me landing on top of the individual trying to take my gun.

OP presents a real problem to consider. The average carrier isn't skilled at martial arts. The average Joe or Jane will not react like Chuck Norris and likely will be bound up quickly.