Snatching your gun from it's holster

[KG1]

As I remember, the victim was open carrying in a gun shop. He was looking at the scopes. Some old guy came up, snatched the pistol out of his holster, dropped the mag into his other hand, pushed the pistol in his armpit and then unloaded the mag. This whole time the gun owner and all the other folks in the gun shop stared open mouthed at the old guy. The old guy made some ****ty comment and then walked out. I don't remember the comment for sure so I will not repeat what I think he said. It is unknown if there as a round chambered. The old guy may have popped one out before arm pitting it. I think that summarizes that original post.

This is pretty much the gist of the story. If I remember correctly the old man said something like "what would you have done if I wanted to kill someone?" then he left.

Oh and I think there was a part in there somewhere that dom1104 turned into a monkey.

 

[dom1104]

This is pretty much the gist of the story. If I remember correctly the old man said something like "what would you have done if I wanted to kill someone?" then he left.

Oh and I think there was a part in there somewhere that dom1104 turned into a monkey.

Pretty much.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Anyone have a yellow training barrel for a Beretta 92?

 

[dom1104]

OK so lemme get this straight.

Cop comes up behind Jeremy, he breaks the cops fingers, and because he knows the police cheif......

gets away with it?

So that answers my question, you CAN bust ass on someone who goes for your gun, because if you can do it to a cop and get away with it, you can do it to anyone.


EDIT: =====Whoops, wrong thread. I could have sworn that was this thread.

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

OP here, Everyone shouldn't think this is a open carry issue! way back then I carried strong side with an inside the waistband holster or with an Uncle Mikes pancake type belt holster with a snap. I ALWAYS had a shirt over it, sometimes tucked in.
No, I never stabbed him, but aside from revenge that wouldn't of mattered. he would of been cut but still would be in the advantage. We scrapped at least 3 times and both got beat up quite a bit each time. I tried to flip him forward and he looped a leg in front of mine and we fell in a heap. I tried to fall backwards on top of him and we fell into a heap. each time I was still in the ridiculous position and unable to effectively resist. The Kung-fu guy (compatriot g) had a great counter about working on his shins and feet but nevertheless no matter how bad he got hurt he could still have my gun.
Just a bit of explanation here, the place where I worked was bristling with guns. Everybody was strapped, most without a ltch. (A real bad part of town, and real bad employees) It was the bosses position that if he could relieve you of your weapon then it was by definition not secure. you could then pick it up at the end of the day and try again tomorrow. He didn't want guns hanging out in the shop. as you all can see there were no social values in that place and we would put our hands on someone without remorse, it was a dog eat dog place! The boss was top dog, the worst of everybody there. It wasn't long before I gave up strong side carry for other slower to deploy but easier to defend methods.

 

[dom1104]

OP here, Everyone shouldn't think this is a open carry issue! way back then I carried strong side with an inside the waistband holster or with an Uncle Mikes pancake type belt holster with a snap. I ALWAYS had a shirt over it, sometimes tucked in.
No, I never stabbed him, but aside from revenge that wouldn't of mattered. he would of been cut but still would be in the advantage. We scrapped at least 3 times and both got beat up quite a bit each time. I tried to flip him forward and he looped a leg in front of mine and we fell in a heap. I tried to fall backwards on top of him and we fell into a heap. each time I was still in the ridiculous position and unable to effectively resist. The Kung-fu guy (compatriot g) had a great counter about working on his shins and feet but nevertheless no matter how bad he got hurt he could still have my gun.
Just a bit of explanation here, the place where I worked was bristling with guns. Everybody was strapped, most without a ltch. (A real bad part of town, and real bad employees) It was the bosses position that if he could relieve you of your weapon then it was by definition not secure. you could then pick it up at the end of the day and try again tomorrow. He didn't want guns hanging out in the shop. as you all can see there were no social values in that place and we would put our hands on someone without remorse, it was a dog eat dog place! The boss was top dog, the worst of everybody there. It wasn't long before I gave up strong side carry for other slower to deploy but easier to defend methods.

Holy crap dude, where did you work?

A meth lab?

 

[You'll shoot your eye out]

It was the late 70's and it was a scrap salvage outfit on the west side. (there are several) No more specifics will be given because my guy must be approaching 70 by now..... I don't want anybody being made a fool of by an old man. While I worked there the federal marshals came and took one guy for bank robbery and murder. another guy was convicted of the knife murder of a 14 year old over a $50 dope debt. Rough circles, rough times

 

[youngda9]

You said it right at the beginning. You are not a martial artist, just street smart. Technique and training goes a long way. You said you couldn't trip him. That is because you didn't know how to do it. The very first throw that came to my mind was a one-armed shoulder throw. He puts himself in a perfect position for me to execute this on him.

The "throw" would not work since he is anchored to your back with two anchor points. You are attempting to "throw" him away from your gun/side which would be the more secure of the two grips that he has on you. Plus he is trying to get the gun in the first place so it might just pop right out of your holster, or break your holster, with all of the added force applied due to this attempted move. Plus the guy basically has you in double under-hooks from the rear...not really a great throwable position.

Another simple thing to do would be to start stomping on his feet. Even better, rake your foot along his shin before you stomp on his foot.

So you're relying on a little bit of shin/foot pain to get the guy to release a firearm and a 2 handed securing grip from you...

I'm not trying to sound like an Internet Ninja, but I have several years worth of Judo/Jujitsu experience. There are a variety of moves to use which will counter him. However, you have to know what they are before you can employ them.

What are these moves since the above examples won't work in the real world.

 

[Compatriot G]

To start with, he only is holding you with one hand, his left hand. He is holding your right wrist with his left hand while grabbing at your gun. This leaves your left arm with enough room to come up into his left armpit. A one-arm shoulder throw involves you throwing the individual over your right or left shoulder, depending on which side he is on. This is one of the first throws you learn in Judo.

Let me stomp on your arch and see if you don't loosen your grip a bit. After the foot stomp, you bend at the waist and grab a leg and pull it out from under the attacker. If they aren't knocked out by hitting their head on the ground, it is very easy to stomp the groin, solar plexus and face, repeatedly if necessary.

Another option is to just roll forward. Since they already have a hold of you, they are going down with you and you end up on top of their ribs. Plus, there is a good chance they will once again strike their head on the ground.

Or you could just drop straight down once they grab you. This will most likely free your left arm and give you several options.

I have been grabbed plenty of times from the back. The key to any of this is balance. I know how to get you off-balance and cause you to hit the ground. This is what is taught in Judo.

I would suggest you go to any of the Judo schools in this state and observe what is going on. It is far easier to observe a technique than to explain it.

One final note. I remember back in the 80's, people told me my Judo wouldn't work in a "real" fight. I remember watching UFC 1 and seeing this skinny Brazilian Jujitsu player beat everybody with his "inadequate" skills.

 

[Compatriot G]

I just worked this out with my son. In one instance, I had him in an arm-bar and could have shattered his shoulder. In the other one, I placed him in a guillotine-style choke. This gun-snatch technique doesn't work on somebody who is trained.

 

[iChokePeople]

To start with, he only is holding you with one hand, his left hand. He is holding your right wrist with his left hand while grabbing at your gun. This leaves your left arm with enough room to come up into his left armpit. A one-arm shoulder throw involves you throwing the individual over your right or left shoulder, depending on which side he is on. This is one of the first throws you learn in Judo.

Let me stomp on your arch and see if you don't loosen your grip a bit. After the foot stomp, you bend at the waist and grab a leg and pull it out from under the attacker. If they aren't knocked out by hitting their head on the ground, it is very easy to stomp the groin, solar plexus and face, repeatedly if necessary.

Another option is to just roll forward. Since they already have a hold of you, they are going down with you and you end up on top of their ribs. Plus, there is a good chance they will once again strike their head on the ground.

Or you could just drop straight down once they grab you. This will most likely free your left arm and give you several options.

I have been grabbed plenty of times from the back. The key to any of this is balance. I know how to get you off-balance and cause you to hit the ground. This is what is taught in Judo.

I would suggest you go to any of the Judo schools in this state and observe what is going on. It is far easier to observe a technique than to explain it.

One final note. I remember back in the 80's, people told me my Judo wouldn't work in a "real" fight. I remember watching UFC 1 and seeing this skinny Brazilian Jujitsu player beat everybody with his "inadequate" skills.

Valid, but the position the op described is nearly identical to a position you learn in your first week of jiu jitsu for takedowns, and I've NEVER seen it end the way you describe. If the 'attacker' has done it more than twice, his base will be low, his feet won't be right behind you (and really, that's only a distraction, anyway...) and his left arm will have pretty good control of both of your arms for a brief time. Unless you're well-trained or have practiced for it, he'll get your gun or toss you on your ass (which is what *i* use that position for...). It's a very difficult takedown to counter if your opponent gets the position.

Oh, and it's very commonly grabbed from an arm drag, like if you shook his hand. Someone who likes this position will get it very quickly and very forcefully from a handshake or "grip fighting" exchange.

It's something worth considering and practicing.

 

[KG1]

I just worked this out with my son. In one instance, I had him in an arm-bar and could have shattered his shoulder. In the other one, I placed him in a guillotine-style choke. This gun-snatch technique doesn't work on somebody who is trained.

It's a bit of a stretch to say "This gun-snatching technique doesn't work" and quite a different scenario between conducting an exercise with your son when you both know whats going on and another when it could take place at any time in real life.

That's not to say retention training is not a bad thing per say.

 

[iChokePeople]

It's quite a different scenario between conducting an exercise with your son when you both know whats going on and another when it could take place at any time in real life.

I'd still like to see video, either to learn some judo to add to my game, or to see what he's doing wrong.

 

[Compatriot G]

Valid, but the position the op described is nearly identical to a position you learn in your first week of jiu jitsu for takedowns, and I've NEVER seen it end the way you describe. If the 'attacker' has done it more than twice, his base will be low, his feet won't be right behind you (and really, that's only a distraction, anyway...) and his left arm will have pretty good control of both of your arms for a brief time. Unless you're well-trained or have practiced for it, he'll get your gun or toss you on your ass (which is what *i* use that position for...). It's a very difficult takedown to counter if your opponent gets the position.

Oh, and it's very commonly grabbed from an arm drag, like if you shook his hand. Someone who likes this position will get it very quickly and very forcefully from a handshake or "grip fighting" exchange.

It's something worth considering and practicing.

I don't claim to be an expert, but I was able to get free enough to turn into my son and put him in an arm-bar right after he grabbed me. I even had him hold onto my belt while he grabbed me. Once again, I studied Judo/Jujitsu for many years. I don't participate much anymore because of injuries and age. Yet, I was still able to put my 23 year-old son, who is a foundry worker, into an arm-bar without too much effort. BTW, my son is a Judo player, as well.

 

[KG1]

I'd still like to see video, either to learn some judo to add to my game, or to see what he's doing wrong.

I agree. I think learning something like Judo would provide a solid foundation to build any other self defense training on.

 

[Compatriot G]

Depending on where you live, there are several very good Judo dojos around the state. I'm obviously biased, but I believe Hahn's Martial Arts, located in New Castle, is one of the best. Mr.Hahn is one of the best teachers around. He received his first black belt from Kodokan, in Japan. Kodokan is the school founded by Dr. Kano, the originator of Judo.

Judo is what the Japanese police use as their hands-on fighting technique. Mr. Hahn used to work out with the Japanese police while he was stationed in Japan.

If you're interested, PM me for contact info.

 

[jeremy]

I agree. I think learning something like Judo would provide a solid foundation to build any other self defense training on.

It does....

But just don't stop at only taking Judo...

 

[iChokePeople]

I don't claim to be an expert, but I was able to get free enough to turn into my son and put him in an arm-bar right after he grabbed me. I even had him hold onto my belt while he grabbed me. Once again, I studied Judo/Jujitsu for many years. I don't participate much anymore because of injuries and age. Yet, I was still able to put my 23 year-old son, who is a foundry worker, into an arm-bar without too much effort. BTW, my son is a Judo player, as well.

Video. Your background certainly gives you a huge advantage. Base, options, etc, but unless you are REALLY good, I think your son is doing it wrong. Nothing about your son, I just know that position pretty well, have tossed and been tossed from there many times. It's a very dominant position.

 

[jeremy]

So is the Left arm free or pinned against the body in the OPs grab?!

 

[KG1]

It does....

But just don't stop at only taking Judo...

Agreed.