Rob Pincus - Appropriate Open Carry

[iChokePeople]

Just for fun, and remember that I already agreed to OC having some deterrent effect, what about the deterrent effect of the hidden gun? Hold on, don't scoff and question my cough syrup consumption yet, hang with me.

If you were down on your luck, casing your building/neighborhood/whatever, would you prefer that all of the people with guns OC'd or CC'd? Would it be more of a deterrent to know that there were cats with guns around, all of whom were OCing, or to know, statistically, that 10% of the men in your AO have guns that you can't see? Me, I think I'd want to see them. If they're all OCing, you get the OPPORTUNITY to deselect the dangerous ones. Crowd goes buy with some cowboy in a white hat with a big shiny gun on his hip, let them go. Smile, nod, wish them well. Next group comes by, no shiny guns... The situation that would bother ME, I think, is the one in which there weapons I will never know about until it's too late.

Ideally, though, a combination of the two. Some obvious, open deterrent from cops, OCers, etc, and some risk that what you see isn't necessarily what you get.

Just thinking "out loud", in internet terms.

 

[eldirector]

I generally CC, but accept the notion that OC provides some level of deterrent. How much? I don't think you could possibly quantify it, but that's ok, I'll stipulate that there is some deterrent effect. For me, though, it's still not that simple, because I have to ask myself what's going to happen next. When some mugger sees me OCing and deselects me, what next? Will he select someone else 10 minutes from now, someone who CAN'T defend himself/herself? Or will seeing your gun release him from his inner demons and turn him from his life of crime? No answers here, just one of the questions that steers MY thinking in this issue.

That's one of the biggest detractors of OC for me personally. I'd almost prefer they do target me and perhaps things will work out to eliminate a threat to someone less prepared.

My personal view:
I am not a vigilante. I am not a hero. I simply want to protect myself and my family. There will always be predators, and there will always be prey. But not me. Not today.

From an old joke I retell frequently:
I don't need to outrun the bear. I just need to outrun the other campers.

I will never claim that openly carrying a firearm will deter all criminals. The world is not that black and white. I AM of the opinion that open carry is one tool in a vast arsenal that can help reduce your chance of being selected as a potential target, and many (but not all) situations. Concealing is another option. Finding the balance is an exercise for the reader.

 

[eldirector]

Just for fun, and remember that I already agreed to OC having some deterrent effect, what about the deterrent effect of the hidden gun? Hold on, don't scoff and question my cough syrup consumption yet, hang with me.

If you were down on your luck, casing your building/neighborhood/whatever, would you prefer that all of the people with guns OC'd or CC'd? Would it be more of a deterrent to know that there were cats with guns around, all of whom were OCing, or to know, statistically, that 10% of the men in your AO have guns that you can't see? Me, I think I'd want to see them. If they're all OCing, you get the OPPORTUNITY to deselect the dangerous ones. Crowd goes buy with some cowboy in a white hat with a big shiny gun on his hip, let them go. Smile, nod, wish them well. Next group comes by, no shiny guns... The situation that would bother ME, I think, is the one in which there weapons I will never know about until it's too late.

Ideally, though, a combination of the two. Some obvious, open deterrent from cops, OCers, etc, and some risk that what you see isn't necessarily what you get.

Just thinking "out loud", in internet terms.

You are applying your logic to the criminal.

The little I have read on this subject leads me to believe they think differently. Very differently.

They need money/drugs/sex, and they need it now. They don't think all that far ahead. Big guy with a gun? Skip him. Little guy that MIGHT have a gun? Well, no easier targets, so let's hit the little guy hard and run. Young lady that might have a gun? Sweet! I get some booty AND a new gun! (Remember, they already think they are superior and you are disposable)

 

[iChokePeople]

My personal view:
I am not a vigilante. I am not a hero. I simply want to protect myself and my family. There will always be predators, and there will always be prey. But not me. Not today.

From an old joke I retell frequently:
I don't need to outrun the bear. I just need to outrun the other campers.

Totally valid. As you said, each of us has to make his/her own choices in this area.

 

[David Rose]

Cooper specifically talks about fighting back, and not wilting under the attack. Maybe that is producing a weapon your attacker didn't know you had. More specifically, though, Cooper talks about aggressively resisting - bringing the fight to the attacker. This is something most criminals (in his experience) do not expect.

Of course, other than Cooper's first principle, he is working under the assumption that you have already been selected as a potential victim, and are responding to an attack.

If you do want to learn a bit about "victim selection", and how to avoid being a target in the first place (and not needed Cooper's last 6 Principles), read this study:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oVJOzJLOQAcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Specifically starting on page 84: Victim Selection. This is one part of the argument most commonly used by open carriers.

Is there such a thing as choosing when and under what circumstances you fight back? How does OC effect your range of options?

Is carrying a gun openly the only way people avoid being chosen by a criminal? Could openly carrying make you more likely to be selected (not just violent crimes, but also property crimes like having your home broken into while you're gone because everyone knows you have guns)?

 

[the1kidd03]

You are applying your logic to the criminal.

The little I have read on this subject leads me to believe they think differently. Very differently.

They need money/drugs/sex, and they need it now. They don't think all that far ahead. Big guy with a gun? Skip him. Little guy that MIGHT have a gun? Well, no easier targets, so let's hit the little guy hard and run. Young lady that might have a gun? Sweet! I get some booty AND a new gun! (Remember, they already think they are superior and you are disposable)

Agreed. Based on all my studies, they don't think about consequences any further than knowing they don't want to pay ANY. Hence, they seek easy targets and run at even a hint of something that will keep them from accomplishing what they set out for.

 

[the1kidd03]

Is there such a thing as choosing when and under what circumstances you fight back? How does OC effect your range of options?

Is carrying a gun openly the only way people avoid being chosen by a criminal? Could openly carrying make you more likely to be selected (not just violent crimes, but also property crimes like having your home broken into while you're gone because everyone knows you have guns)?

From everything I can find and/or studied there is nothing which can adequately prove one has been selected specifically BECAUSE they had a gun. At least on a face to face reference. It's typically a byproduct of an existing intent/attack.

As far as home robberies, I haven't seen or heard of any valid research into it. BUT I do think it's entirely possible. Most criminals target victims within a certain radius of their home and it's relatively small. If we are to assume that to be true, it's entirely feasible that your neighbor is likely to break into your home more so than some random person from miles away. If they see you coming and going with arsenals a lot, then you're putting yourself at risk for this IMO.

 

[Rhoadmar]

Just for fun, and remember that I already agreed to OC having some deterrent effect, what about the deterrent effect of the hidden gun? Hold on, don't scoff and question my cough syrup consumption yet, hang with me.

If you were down on your luck, casing your building/neighborhood/whatever, would you prefer that all of the people with guns OC'd or CC'd? Would it be more of a deterrent to know that there were cats with guns around, all of whom were OCing, or to know, statistically, that 10% of the men in your AO have guns that you can't see? Me, I think I'd want to see them. If they're all OCing, you get the OPPORTUNITY to deselect the dangerous ones. Crowd goes buy with some cowboy in a white hat with a big shiny gun on his hip, let them go. Smile, nod, wish them well. Next group comes by, no shiny guns... The situation that would bother ME, I think, is the one in which there weapons I will never know about until it's too late.

Ideally, though, a combination of the two. Some obvious, open deterrent from cops, OCers, etc, and some risk that what you see isn't necessarily what you get.

Just thinking "out loud", in internet terms.

I agree a combination in that situation may be more effective than just one ore the other. Variety is the spice of life.

 

[eldirector]

Is there such a thing as choosing when and under what circumstances you fight back? How does OC effect your range of options?

Of course. You could choose to flee. Even choose to submit. I am sure OC may limit some options, and present others.

Is carrying a gun openly the only way people avoid being chosen by a criminal?

Of COURSE open carry is not the only way. It is just one small way on a HUGE continuum. Other options could be:
- Stay alert
- avoid high crime areas
- walk with purpose
- make eye contact
- and tons, TONS more! I wish I could find the thread on INGO where a respected member/trainer talked about avoiding crime. Lots of fantastic ideas.

Could openly carrying make you more likely to be selected (not just violent crimes, but also property crimes like having your home broken into while you're gone because everyone knows you have guns)?

Sure. And folks have posted the few cases where individuals were targeted specifically for their gun. Statistically, though, it is almost immeasurable. So, the question becomes, for YOU, what is the risk? What is the reward?

And how would a random criminal know where I live? Unless they were a neighbor. In which case, I have other problems!

 

[the1kidd03]

Sure. And folks have posted the few cases where individuals were targeted specifically for their gun.

Would you happen to have any references for this? I haven't seen any which could unequivocally be ascribed to targeting for their weapon other than LEOs.

 

[iChokePeople]

And how would a random criminal know where I live? Unless they were a neighbor. In which case, I have other problems!

Your address would be published on some web site by a leftist rag or lib group with an agenda.

 

[eldirector]

Pretty sure they are either in this thread or the OC Debate thread.

The one I know for sure is the Wisconsin guy who was OCing while mowing his grass. They perps specifically wanted his gun. I guess his "situational awareness" was a tad low that day.

I have seen posts of a few others. All told, maybe a dozen in the last several years? Not including attacks on LEOs.

 

[the1kidd03]

Pretty sure they are either in this thread or the OC Debate thread.

The one I know for sure is the Wisconsin guy who was OCing while mowing his grass. They perps specifically wanted his gun. I guess his "situational awareness" was a tad low that day.

I have seen posts of a few others. All told, maybe a dozen in the last several years? Not including attacks on LEOs.

Did they have back stories? Such as, "my neighbor was mad at me because...."

In which case you really couldn't attribute the gun being the motivating factor, but often times in those situations people place blame where it's easy.

I'll have to spend some time digging through the search function later if I can.

 

[David Rose]

From everything I can find and/or studied there is nothing which can adequately prove one has been selected specifically BECAUSE they had a gun. At least on a face to face reference. It's typically a byproduct of an existing intent/attack.

As far as home robberies, I haven't seen or heard of any valid research into it. BUT I do think it's entirely possible. Most criminals target victims within a certain radius of their home and it's relatively small. If we are to assume that to be true, it's entirely feasible that your neighbor is likely to break into your home more so than some random person from miles away. If they see you coming and going with arsenals a lot, then you're putting yourself at risk for this IMO.

I asked if there were other ways to avoid selection. I am not claiming there is no deterring effect caused by OC.

 

[the1kidd03]

I asked if there were other ways to avoid selection. I am not claiming there is no deterring effect caused by OC.

In which case I would defer to Eldirector's response.

Stay aware, walk with a purpose, etc.

Don't walk around looking at the ground or your phone. Talk about advertising bait and I see it way too much around college campuses.

 

[David Rose]

And how would a random criminal know where I live? Unless they were a neighbor. In which case, I have other problems!

Is it "random" if a neighbor kid tells a friend at school that the crazy guy with the gun came and asked his dad to watch out for his place while he is gone on vacation?

Do criminals always approach people (not OCers of course) at random to victimize them?

 

[the1kidd03]

Is it "random" if a neighbor kid tells a friend at school that the crazy guy with the gun came and asked his dad to watch out for his place while he is gone on vacation?

Do criminals always approach people (not OCers of course) at random to victimize them?

There is no such thing as "black and white" or "yes or no" one size fits all answers in the real world.

 

[eldirector]

Is it "random" if a neighbor kid tells a friend at school that the crazy guy with the gun came and asked his dad to watch out for his place while he is gone on vacation?

No, that would not be random.

Do criminals always approach people (not OCers of course) at random to victimize them?

No.

Sorry if I can't answer every possible scenario. Like I've already mentioned many times: criminals operate across a wide continuum. We choose to defend ourselves across a wide continuum.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

What if X?

What if Y?

Whatif Z?

We can what if this to death if you want to but at some point you need to do what you need to do and we need to do what we need to do.

OC is a personal choice and trying to what if the **** out of it isn't going to do much good for any of us.

 

[the1kidd03]

What if X?

What if Y?

Whatif Z?

We can what if this to death if you want to but at some point you need to do what you need to do and we need to do what we need to do.

OC is a personal choice and trying to what if the **** out of it isn't going to do much good for any of us.