Rob Pincus - Appropriate Open Carry

[Hoosierdood]

I am a ginger, and I am a ****ing bad ass. And I give that impression to everyone I meet.

Sig line material right there.

 

[Hohn]

It is my opinion that the gun community suffers from the same Achillies Heel as most other fringe hobbies/lifestyles where people devote much effort to their success.

We are taught to use the work of those who come before us over original research and experience.

When you can name a large portion of the most influential people in one sentance they have an unequal effect on that aspect compared to reality. Everyone quoting the singular opinion of who came before them leads us down the path with blinders on.

There is no "answer" to the OC/CC debate, why should there be? Those of us free enough to make the choice on our own are more than capable of deciding for ourselves how we prefer to carry- other's opinions be damned.

I like this post.^^

Sometimes we need to break the mold and start from scratch. Yes, it may mean reinventing the wheel a time or two. But in the long run, it fosters innovation and ensures that the assumptions are truly valid ones.

It is true that we stand on the shoulders of all who have gone before. But that doesn't mean we are accurately learning the lessons they would teach us.





One thing that occurred to me is that a major foundational assumption of the OC argument is that there is a deterrent effect on the criminal element from seeing someone OC.

This assumes that the criminal is a rational actor with a developed sense of self-preservation. Is this a correct assumption?


I wonder if it is. I have to think that most crooks are neither particularly clever nor rational. Druggies certainly don't plan and don't reason very well-- they just move from crisis to crisis in search of their next fix. Crimes are crimes of opportunity.

I don't think the parallel of predator lion vs prey zebra is what happens with most crimes. Rarely do criminals have a pick of victims and prioritize based on "rational" thinking like how big someone is or whether or not they are armed.

If you and your spouse are walking down a dark alley (not that an INGOer would be that foolish), a criminal there will select you as a potential victim because of proximity. You're there. He's there. You might be OCing a shiny stainless 1911 that would be hard to miss, but he's probably not going to notice it. You'll likely escape without harm after having to draw-- but you the passive deterrent doesn't exist, only the active deterrent of staring down 230 angry grains of lead.

In daylight, the possibility of having some deterrent to OC exists, but I think it's minimal. A crook can tell who has good SA and who doesn't. Someone armed but zoning out on their Twitter feed gains no deterrent from OCing. Again, crooks aren't the greatest planners and organizers. If, in the heat of the moment, they are nominating potential victims, the OC is not likely to be even noticed, never mind dispositive relative to other factors (SA of victim, escape route availability, etc).


I think the deterrent argument for OC fails pretty hard because the assumptions about criminal behavior are not valid.

There are good arguments for OC-- primarily speed of draw and safety of accessing the weapon. I just don't think that deterrence is much of an argument to support OC.

Nor do I buy the contra argument that OCing singles you out to be a victim. Again, I think most crooks aren't paying close enough attention to notice ANY gun-- OC, CC, no carry-- until it's pointed at them or actively discharging.

 

[David Rose]

This blizzare pro choice rally we've been treated to is rather unconvincing. Rob asked people to do two things. If you are OCing for political reasons please consider the consequences of your behavior. If you are OCing out of convenience, please do it safely.

The "We're HERE, we've got GEAR, and we're IN YOUR FACE" crowd starts freaking out about people not supporting their rights.

Some of the convenience people start trying to justify their decision as some sort of tactically superior ninja secret that only they are smart enough to have figured out. Or they start waving the pro choice banner (no one is trying to take away your choices, just make them more informed).

In the end my main concern is for the people who are new to the community. Public forums like this are a blessing and a curse. You can get good information or bad information out to a vast audience. So once again, to the"Don't tase me bro" crowd. Cut it out. To the rest of the OCers please be safe. I don't think that should rock anybody's world or ruffle to many feathers.

 

[the1kidd03]

No, it is usually pretty clear why people would want to jump you.

and I'M the "young" one here

 

[the1kidd03]

One thing that occurred to me is that a major foundational assumption of the OC argument is that there is a deterrent effect on the criminal element from seeing someone OC.

This assumes that the criminal is a rational actor with a developed sense of self-preservation. Is this a correct assumption?

No. This is a well documented and researched analysis by criminal profilers and psychologists. As with everything there exceptions to rules, but the majority of criminals are indeed opportunistic and run when facing something that will keep them from accomplishing their goal.


I wonder if it is. I have to think that most crooks are neither particularly clever nor rational. Druggies certainly don't plan and don't reason very well-- they just move from crisis to crisis in search of their next fix. Crimes are crimes of opportunity.

I don't think the parallel of predator lion vs prey zebra is what happens with most crimes. Rarely do criminals have a pick of victims and prioritize based on "rational" thinking like how big someone is or whether or not they are armed.

If you and your spouse are walking down a dark alley (not that an INGOer would be that foolish), a criminal there will select you as a potential victim because of proximity. You're there. He's there. You might be OCing a shiny stainless 1911 that would be hard to miss, but he's probably not going to notice it. You'll likely escape without harm after having to draw-- but you the passive deterrent doesn't exist, only the active deterrent of staring down 230 angry grains of lead.

In daylight, the possibility of having some deterrent to OC exists, but I think it's minimal. A crook can tell who has good SA and who doesn't. Someone armed but zoning out on their Twitter feed gains no deterrent from OCing. Again, crooks aren't the greatest planners and organizers. If, in the heat of the moment, they are nominating potential victims, the OC is not likely to be even noticed, never mind dispositive relative to other factors (SA of victim, escape route availability, etc).

Couldn't agree more with the bolded above. The next sentence however isn't exactly accurate. It simply depends on the criminal but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in that assumption. They do case homes, wait for better opportunities, etc.


I think the deterrent argument for OC fails pretty hard because the assumptions about criminal behavior are not valid.

Again, they aren't assumptions. The theory is based in the psychological research of common criminals however there is not good way to prove it when it does occur. I've had specific instance of it occur, but again no way to prove it. What are you going to do? Ask him if he was planning to rob you until he saw your gun? Unlikely.

There are good arguments for OC-- primarily speed of draw and safety of accessing the weapon. I just don't think that deterrence is much of an argument to support OC.

Nor do I buy the contra argument that OCing singles you out to be a victim. Again, I think most crooks aren't paying close enough attention to notice ANY gun-- OC, CC, no carry-- until it's pointed at them or actively discharging.

responses in red above

 

[the1kidd03]

It is my opinion that the gun community suffers from the same Achillies Heel as most other fringe hobbies/lifestyles where people devote much effort to their success.

We are taught to use the work of those who come before us over original research and experience.

When you can name a large portion of the most influential people in one sentance they have an unequal effect on that aspect compared to reality. Everyone quoting the singular opinion of who came before them leads us down the path with blinders on.

There is no "answer" to the OC/CC debate, why should there be? Those of us free enough to make the choice on our own are more than capable of deciding for ourselves how we prefer to carry- other's opinions be damned.

Couldn't agree more.

Follow the herd. If it goes against what the most arrogant of "professionals" say, than you are damned.

 

[the1kidd03]

This blizzare pro choice rally we've been treated to is rather unconvincing. Rob asked people to do two things. If you are OCing for political reasons please consider the consequences of your behavior. If you are OCing out of convenience, please do it safely.

The "We're HERE, we've got GEAR, and we're IN YOUR FACE" crowd starts freaking out about people not supporting their rights.

I haven't noticed anyone getting "in your face" here?!? Rather civil discussion for the most part IMO.

Some of the convenience people start trying to justify their decision as some sort of tactically superior ninja secret that only they are smart enough to have figured out. Or they start waving the pro choice banner (no one is trying to take away your choices, just make them more informed).

Again, where? I haven't seen anything that I would interpret as "superior ninja secret." Since when does "being more informed" coincide with listening to other's opinions and being expected to follow? As far as I'm concerned, when a "professional" instructor can come to me and give me solid first hand experience in dealing with criminal attacks AS A CIVLIAN (not a uniformed LEO ) then I'll consider their opinion on this whole debate considerably more. All of the "demographics" or circumstances are changed when you introduce positions of authority, duty, etc. and aren't accurately comparable unless well researched at the time. (ie Can you prove this man attacked you SPECIFICALLY to get your gun? Or did he have a pre-existing disdain for LE and saw what he thought would be an easy target to get some revenge on?)

In the end my main concern is for the people who are new to the community. Public forums like this are a blessing and a curse. You can get good information or bad information out to a vast audience. So once again, to the"Don't tase me bro" crowd. Cut it out. To the rest of the OCers please be safe. I don't think that should rock anybody's world or ruffle to many feathers.

Agreed. I don't really care how ANYONE chooses to carry, as long as they take their safety seriously enough TO carry and do it safely/responsibly. I simply get tired of the so called "professionals" condescending half of their potential client base and still suggest they're deserving of that title.

Like it's been said a thousand times already; there is really little documented evidence to accurately determine a more appropriate choice. Until such a time where suitable research and documentation has been done, it's purely a matter of preference. I do wish that the antogonistic OCers would quit making their videos and all, but that's part of liberty.

 

[sonofd]

The 2nd Amendment is so that we can retain the right to hunt
You can't challenge the government

Where in the below statement, does it say anything about the right to hunt?A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Would you happen to have any references for this? I haven't seen any which could unequivocally be ascribed to targeting for their weapon other than LEOs.

Like this one? http://youtu.be/zx_YUO4SzcY

Also, although you may not be the target of the attack, exposing your "wild card" by OCing could be your downfall as a bystander...

Worst case scenario... Lets say you stop to get gas late one night. You worked hard and have a case of the munchies... You walk into the C store to grab a snack and a drink. As you are deciding the epic choice of cheetos vs doritos, the BG barges in. The first thing he notices is your 1911 predominantly displayed on your hip. He's a tweaker eager for his next high and he's ultra paranoid. The last thing you hear is the report from his gun as he takes out the only threat he sees. YOU!

Had you been CC you would have been just another customer that is forced to lay on the ground while he made off with what's in the till.

 

[griffin]

I'd almost prefer they do target me and perhaps things will work out to eliminate a threat to someone less prepared.

Why? If the criminal moves on to a commie/lib who doesn't "believe" in firearms and mugs him, maybe the commie/lib will see the light.

 

[griffin]

I just don't think that deterrence is much of an argument to support OC.

I have read several stories, some right here I believe, of unsavory characters approaching someone in a parking lot, and when they got close enough to see the openly carried pistol, turned around and went the other way.

 

[griffin]

The first thing he notices is your 1911 predominantly displayed on your hip. The last thing you hear is the report from his gun as he takes out the only threat he sees. YOU!

I hate it when that happens.

 

[Double T]

We have a thread for debating. Isn't this a video thread? Keep it on topic. The info was well presented, and he didn't call anyone an idiot for OCing that I saw. Just said you may want to rethink your methodology if you have a zero retention setup. Not a bad idea IMHO.

 

[Sonney]

My son OC don't know why he does but that is his right. I CC I don't want to be the first target if some nutcase comes in. Don't know which is right or if ether is wrong. I don't feel that I should have the right to make people nervous even though I have the right to carry my gun. Now that said, when I am at a place of business and see someone with a gun on I don't get nervous but I will pay attention to what that person is doing. Don't really care if he is a cop or not. I my self don't want to draw attention to me or the person that I am with. This is just my view yours may be different.

Sonney

 

[the1kidd03]

Like this one? http://youtu.be/zx_YUO4SzcY

Also, although you may not be the target of the attack, exposing your "wild card" by OCing could be your downfall as a bystander...

Worst case scenario... Lets say you stop to get gas late one night. You worked hard and have a case of the munchies... You walk into the C store to grab a snack and a drink. As you are deciding the epic choice of cheetos vs doritos, the BG barges in. The first thing he notices is your 1911 predominantly displayed on your hip. He's a tweaker eager for his next high and he's ultra paranoid. The last thing you hear is the report from his gun as he takes out the only threat he sees. YOU!

Had you been CC you would have been just another customer that is forced to lay on the ground while he made off with what's in the till.

Video: We can find singular instances to support either side of a debate all day long. Unless you can accurately track EACH attack with a firearm involved from both sides, or at least a significant majority, it' not a reasonable "solution" to the debate; merely a single supporting example.

We can also "what if" it to death to support either side of the debate. Making random thoughts of scenarios to support our perspective is pointless. In every situation I've ever been in, OC would have or did help me. Not a single one was a situation where I was a bystander in public.

My now wife and I pulled into a gas station a while back on our way to take a piece of furniture (or TV or something large I had to strap in, I can't remember what it was) somewhere in the back of my truck. We pulled into the side of the building which was sort of an area which is blocked off from view of surrounding buildings/areas.

I noticed a local "thug" as I was pulling into my space was standing by the payphone on the wall of the station. As I pulled into the space I noticed his attention was on our vehicle and he proceeded to slowly walk towards my truck as I was getting out. My wife noticed him too and I told her to stay in the truck and keep an eye on him as I got out. I got out fast in order to keep him from closing more distance to us, but not in an aggressive manner. He was headed my direction and picked up his pace slightly as if he had more intent. I didn't look directly at him, and instead raised my arm up to appear to be checking the straps holding our cargo. He immediately diverted and went far around my truck and began walking down the street.

Afterward, my wife told me he rather obviously noticed my gun after raising my hand and immediately redirected. I noticed his direction change but wasn't able to notice his eyes like my wife was.

Can I prove any of it? No. Can I prove he intended to do us harm? No. But it's just one of many more examples of things I've experienced throughout my life which helps me to choose OC more often than not.

For a guy who minds his own business, doesn't talk to random people, etc. you would think that if he were to be in a defensive situation he would most likely be in a scenario as a bystander. I have yet to be in a bystander situation and have been targeted several times when giving the appearance of a soft target.

 

[Coach]

The OC/CC thing is so stupid. Gun people wanting to control how other gun people do things. We are doing to ourselves the same thing the anti gun crowd does.

It is my gun and I am responsible for it. Leave me alone and let me exercise my rights the way I see fit. If we don't exercise a right then it won't matter much.

 

[the1kidd03]

The OC/CC thing is so stupid. Gun people wanting to control how other gun people do things. We are doing to ourselves the same thing the anti gun crowd does.

It is my gun and I am responsible for it. Leave me alone and let me exercise my rights the way I see fit. If we don't exercise a right then it won't matter much.

THANK YOU!!

 

[jkwparrott]

The OC/CC thing is so stupid. Gun people wanting to control how other gun people do things. We are doing to ourselves the same thing the anti gun crowd does.

It is my gun and I am responsible for it. Leave me alone and let me exercise my rights the way I see fit. If we don't exercise a right then it won't matter much.

I could not agree more Coach! I'm sick of it and refuse to even say what I prefer to do anymore. I'll do what I want and you do what you want. As long as they are both legal it's nobody's business.

 

[the1kidd03]

Why? If the criminal moves on to a commie/lib who doesn't "believe" in firearms and mugs him, maybe the commie/lib will see the light.

To be honest, I don't know why. I've just always felt that way. I guess it's the whole mantra behind the "wolf/sheep/dog" analogy/mindset.

 

[David Rose]

The OC/CC thing is so stupid. Gun people wanting to control how other gun people do things. We are doing to ourselves the same thing the anti gun crowd does.

It is my gun and I am responsible for it. Leave me alone and let me exercise my rights the way I see fit. If we don't exercise a right then it won't matter much.

Is asking someone not to be an obnoxious jerk, or negligent realy that much of an affront?