Rob Pincus - Appropriate Open Carry

[lovemachine]

So...there are NO "top tier" instructors that advocate open carrying for self protection?

 

[cedartop]

Probably all of the LE and military trainers.

For some reason, civilian/citizen trainers seem to assume "concealed" from the onset. Could simply be that MOST states have CCW laws. Trainers want to appeal to the largest audience, and likely received CCW training themselves. You teach, and preach, what you know.

Well that is really apples and oranges, but even so as someone already said don't assume all of the "LE military trainers" recommend OC. Unless things have changed a lot many police don't even carry off duty, let alone OC. The dept. I was on required you to carry off duty and even payed a stipend for it, but many still didn't. Most of those who did just threw their .38 in their pocket. Never saw one OC.

But, you do bring up a point I have been wondering about and maybe should give its own thread but I will ask here first. Where do all of the OC'ers get their training? Of the many classes I have taken or taught, I have seen nay but a handful of people who OC. Now I won't pretend to have done an in depth clinical study on this like some here would, but I definitely pay attention to this. Especially since coming to INGO. Prior to that OC wasn't even on my radar.

How can I say I haven't seen many OC'ers in classes? Well first, I am usually early for class see almost nobody show up OC'ing. Second, if I am teaching, I always ask. And of course as many of you know, at lunch or breaks you get to talking with your fellow students and these things typically come up. Now don't get me wrong, many of the people like to run drills open to gain any advantage they can. Ego? No way! Oh man! Did he just admit it is generally faster to draw from OC?

Anyway, it is just a question. Believe it or not, I am a bit of a fence sitter in the epic OC/CC struggle. It is a little like Ron Paul, he might not be so bad if it wasn't the crazies who support him.

 

[cedartop]

So...there are NO "top tier" instructors that advocate open carrying for self protection?

Well I think kidd came out in support of OC.

 

[lovemachine]

Well I think kidd came out in support of OC.

But is Kidd a "top tier" instructor?

 

[lovemachine]

And top tier instructors mean well known in the gun world.

John Farnam, Travis Haley, Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Suarez, Ayoob, Mike Seeklander, Rob Pincus, James Yeager....etc....



And for the record, I don't care if you OC. But FOR ME, since I carry a pistol for self defense, it's better and more of an advantage to conceal. I don't want anyone to know I have a gun unless its on my terms.

 

[the1kidd03]

But is Kidd a "top tier" instructor?

Not even close...

I get paid to teach employees. I don't charge to help patriots.

 

[the1kidd03]

Well I think kidd came out in support of OC.

And top tier instructors mean well known in the gun world.

John Farnam, Travis Haley, Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Suarez, Ayoob, Mike Seeklander, Rob Pincus, James Yeager....etc....



And for the record, I don't care if you OC. But FOR ME, since I carry a pistol for self defense, it's better and more of an advantage to conceal. I don't want anyone to know I have a gun unless its on my terms.

To point out, I don't "advocate" for either side specifically. I personally prefer OC. This choice is based on my personal experience, education, etc. I advise no different to anybody else; give people things to consider from both sides of the aisle, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

I'm a very quiet, mind my own business sort of guy. You won't find me randomly saying hello to people I pass by, share elevators with, etc. unless it's in return to another.

Having said that I have been forced into violent situations early in my life and all through growing up which taught me the importance of self-defense, of SA, moving with a purpose, appearing to be a hard target, etc. It is through those experiences and others which have demonstrated to me the value of OC instead of CC. Since my awareness would be considered rather high by most, it works fine for me. It may not be right for everybody else though.

 

[the1kidd03]

And top tier instructors mean well known in the gun world.

John Farnam, Travis Haley, Pat Rogers, Larry Vickers, Suarez, Ayoob, Mike Seeklander, Rob Pincus, James Yeager....etc....



And for the record, I don't care if you OC. But FOR ME, since I carry a pistol for self defense, it's better and more of an advantage to conceal. I don't want anyone to know I have a gun unless its on my terms.

So, assume for a second you were walking downtown for whatever reason in your typical CC fashion. Thus, presenting yourself as a soft target. You are walking with a loved one and talking with them, fill in the blanks here with whomever it's not really pertinent. Suddenly you are struck in the back of the head or in the temple with a blunt object.

How does the choice of CC give you an advantage here as opposed to being a bystander in a retail robbery like most people assume they'll encounter?

 

[lovemachine]

So, assume for a second you were walking downtown for whatever reason in your typical CC fashion. Thus, presenting yourself as a soft target. You are walking with a loved one and talking with them, fill in the blanks here with whomever it's not really pertinent. Suddenly you are struck in the back of the head or in the temple with a blunt object.

How does the choice of CC give you an advantage here as opposed to being a bystander in a retail robbery like most people assume they'll encounter?

I see what you're saying. BUT, I could ask you the same thing, while you're OCing.

Just because you OC, doesn't mean you are anymore safe than I am CCing.

I don't care how good your situational awareness is, if someone wants to knock you down from behind, you're getting knocked down.

 

[the1kidd03]

I see what you're saying. BUT, I could ask you the same thing, while you're OCing.

Just because you OC, doesn't mean you are anymore safe than I am CCing.

I don't care how good your situational awareness is, if someone wants to knock you down from behind, you're getting knocked down.

Indeed it COULD happen to you regardless of carry style, HOWEVER knowing that the majority criminals specifically seek soft targets you are significantly reducing the likelihood of this by OCing.

That situation did happen to me when I was a teenager, before I was able to carry. It was only one of many hard learned SA lessons I've had. In the end the fact that I came out on top was only due to having an unusually "hard head." There were some other factors too, but had I been knocked unconscious nothing else would have mattered. All because I gave the impression of being a soft target and didn't notice a person that was too close to my back.

Before it's asked, no "I wasn't out looking for trouble" or "hanging with the wrong crowd" or any other fill in the blank assumptions/stereotypes people come up with.

 

[lovemachine]

Indeed it COULD happen to you regardless of carry style, HOWEVER knowing that the majority criminals specifically seek soft targets you are significantly reducing the likelihood of this by OCing.

I am not a soft target.

 

[the1kidd03]

I am not a soft target.

It's not really a matter of whether you ARE or not. It's a matter of whether or not you give that impression to those who might notice you.

 

[lovemachine]

It's not really a matter of whether you ARE or not. It's a matter of whether or not you give that impression to those who might notice you.

I am aware of that. I am not a soft target. I am a ginger, and I am a ****ing bad ass. And I give that impression to everyone I meet.

 

[cedartop]

.

Before it's asked, no "I wasn't out looking for trouble" or "hanging with the wrong crowd" or any other fill in the blank assumptions/stereotypes people come up with.

No, it is usually pretty clear why people would want to jump you.

 

[esrice]

It's not really a matter of whether you ARE or not. It's a matter of whether or not you give that impression to those who might notice you.

So you're saying lovemachine should carry a couple of these?

 

[lovemachine]

So you're saying lovemachine should carry a couple of these?

Mine would be concealed

 

[esrice]

Mine would be concealed

If visible weapons provide a deterring effect, then the bigger and badder the better, right? No one sucker punches a guy carrying a mace.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Well that is really apples and oranges, but even so as someone already said don't assume all of the "LE military trainers" recommend OC. Unless things have changed a lot many police don't even carry off duty, let alone OC. The dept. I was on required you to carry off duty and even payed a stipend for it, but many still didn't. Most of those who did just threw their .38 in their pocket. Never saw one OC.

But, you do bring up a point I have been wondering about and maybe should give its own thread but I will ask here first. Where do all of the OC'ers get their training? Of the many classes I have taken or taught, I have seen nay but a handful of people who OC. Now I won't pretend to have done an in depth clinical study on this like some here would, but I definitely pay attention to this. Especially since coming to INGO. Prior to that OC wasn't even on my radar.

How can I say I haven't seen many OC'ers in classes? Well first, I am usually early for class see almost nobody show up OC'ing. Second, if I am teaching, I always ask. And of course as many of you know, at lunch or breaks you get to talking with your fellow students and these things typically come up. Now don't get me wrong, many of the people like to run drills open to gain any advantage they can. Ego? No way! Oh man! Did he just admit it is generally faster to draw from OC?

Anyway, it is just a question. Believe it or not, I am a bit of a fence sitter in the epic OC/CC struggle. It is a little like Ron Paul, he might not be so bad if it wasn't the crazies who support him.

I have trained locally with a LEO trainer and several other local guys who really know what they are doing. I have taken the Indiana Comprehensive Firearm Laws class from Guy at Tactical Firearms Training as well.

In training it has always been pointed out that learning the drawstrokes and duplicating them over and over again with an easily accessible, quality, OWB holster is preferred because of safety, not speed.

None of the guys I trained with specifically advocated OC but none had too much to say about it negatively at the time either.

 

[cedartop]

.

In training it has always been pointed out that learning the drawstrokes and duplicating them over and over again with an easily accessible, quality, OWB holster is preferred because of safety, not speed.

.r.

I agree. In our entry level class where we first teach the drawstroke, an OWB is the recommended gear.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

It is my opinion that the gun community suffers from the same Achillies Heel as most other fringe hobbies/lifestyles where people devote much effort to their success.

We are taught to use the work of those who come before us over original research and experience.

When you can name a large portion of the most influential people in one sentance they have an unequal effect on that aspect compared to reality. Everyone quoting the singular opinion of who came before them leads us down the path with blinders on.

There is no "answer" to the OC/CC debate, why should there be? Those of us free enough to make the choice on our own are more than capable of deciding for ourselves how we prefer to carry- other's opinions be damned.