Rob Pincus - Appropriate Open Carry

[David Rose]

Speaking of unanswered: with the "hundreds and hundreds" of hours of training represented here, what firearms trainers recommend OC over CC?

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Carry however the hell you want to. I think training is practice is more of an issue. As well as having a quality holster. It makes no sense that someone will buy a $600 gun, then buy a cheap $30 holster. I spend $60+ on my holsters, but it's worth every penny. I don't carry IWB, it's just not dooable for me. I do cover my gun with my shirt. Not because I'm trying to be stealthy, or afraid of scaring some sheep. It works for me, and I feel more confident drawing from OWB. I do have a pocket holster for my carry gun, for that rare ocassion that I want to deep conceal so to speak. Which for me is going somewhere that does not allow firearms, such as the theater. Again, training, practice, and a quality holster is more important in my opinion.

 

[cedartop]

Speaking of unanswered: with the "hundreds and hundreds" of hours of training represented here, what firearms trainers recommend OC over CC?

Dos guys dont no nuthin, days jus tryin to get yo muny.

Seriously though, I think we know the answer to that.

 

[eldirector]

Speaking of unanswered: with the "hundreds and hundreds" of hours of training represented here, what firearms trainers recommend OC over CC?

Probably all of the LE and military trainers.

For some reason, civilian/citizen trainers seem to assume "concealed" from the onset. Could simply be that MOST states have CCW laws. Trainers want to appeal to the largest audience, and likely received CCW training themselves. You teach, and preach, what you know.

 

[David Rose]

Let's try another one.

Was Jeff Cooper wrong to include surprise in his "Principles of Personal Defense"?

 

[the1kidd03]

Let's try another one.

Was Jeff Cooper wrong to include surprise in his "Principles of Personal Defense"?

Let's see how the surprise element works out, when you are the one being surprised by a direct attack for giving the impression of being an easy target rather than assuming you'll be a bystander.

Been there, done that. OC for me whenever possible.

Personal individual preference for all.

 

[David Rose]

Probably all of the LE and military trainers.

For some reason, civilian/citizen trainers seem to assume "concealed" from the onset. Could simply be that MOST states have CCW laws. Trainers want to appeal to the largest audience, and likely received CCW training themselves. You teach, and preach, what you know.

All MIL/LEO trainers recommend OC for non MIL/LEO carry? Than it shouldn't be hard to come up with one heck of an impressive list. Why are you holding back the names?

 

[iChokePeople]

All MIL/LEO trainers recommend OC for non MIL/LEO carry? Than it shouldn't be hard to come up with one heck of an impressive list. Why are you holding back the names?

There's still a missing ingredient, or they're not very convincing -- from what I read and hear, the overwhelming majority of LEOs conceal when off duty. Right? Why? ETA: And why do so many take every opportunity to preach to us the silliness of OC and the value of CC when their trainers are extolling the virtues of OC?

 

[David Rose]

Let's see how the surprise element works out, when you are the one being surprised by a direct attack for giving the impression of being an easy target rather than assuming you'll be a bystander.

Been there, done that. OC for me whenever possible.

Personal individual preference for all.

So we have one yes vote. That was quick.

 

[iChokePeople]

.

 

[Birds Away]

Can someone explain to me why people seem to love to tell other people what is and is not good for them? Even some self-annointed patriots who scream about government intervention in their lives will turn right around and try to micromanage everyone else's life.

It is extremly rare for me to open carry.

I don't give a rat's patootie how, or even if, you carry.

It is absurdly hypocritical to me that the same people who rail against the government sticking their noses into everything, would very obviously do the same thing if given the power.

Indiana code is silent on method of carry. If only everyone else was too.

 

[iChokePeople]

Can someone explain to me why people seem to love to tell other people what is and is not good for them? Even some self-annointed patriots who scream about government intervention in their lives will turn right around and try to micromanage everyone else's life.
...snip...
Indiana code is silent on method of carry. If only everyone else was too.

Exactly -- instructors stating their opinions and recommendations on method of carry? Why? Now that I think of it, Indiana code is silent on handgun grip, yet instructors keep trying to tell us how we should do that. It's silent on drawstrokes, yet instructors feel the need to tell us their thoughts about that, too. What makes these instructors think they can tell us what to do?! Some even think they can recommend a particular type of GUN, or a good retention position, or how to shoot faster or better. I've even had some try to tell me I have to MOVE while I'm shooting. WTF?!

Stop the intrusion and attempts to nanny us!

 

[the1kidd03]

So we have one yes vote. That was quick.

Not exactly.

First off, I recommend personal choice for anyone who inquires or I teach. An instructor must practice what they preach regardless of what field they're teaching in. I OC most of the time, but there are times, situations or places which I feel it's better to CC. It's up to each individual to decide what works best for them, their capabilities, personality, etc. I simply give them the tools/knowledge to make an informed decision for themselves based on my training and personal experience, and then the subsequent knowledge to carry in their chosen method responsibly and effectively.

Secondly, my recommendations are limited in the sense that I'm not a "professional" (in the sense of making an income) instructor although I do teach when I can, per request. So, take it for what you will.

 

[the1kidd03]

Exactly -- instructors stating their opinions and recommendations on method of carry? Why? Now that I think of it, Indiana code is silent on handgun grip, yet instructors keep trying to tell us how we should do that. It's silent on drawstrokes, yet instructors feel the need to tell us their thoughts about that, too. What makes these instructors think they can tell us what to do?! Some even think they can recommend a particular type of GUN, or a good retention position, or how to shoot faster or better. I've even had some try to tell me I have to MOVE while I'm shooting. WTF?!

Stop the intrusion and attempts to nanny us!

I agree with his post. The problem with most of them, I feel, is that they aren't simply RECOMMENDING when they bash and condescend anyone who chooses anything other than their opinion.

Recommendation? Fine, recommend it and clearly identify it as a suggestion based on your experience. No reason to harp on someone who chooses otherwise and have formed different opinions. That is indeed hypocritical of any pro-gun advocate who believes in freedom and not exemplary of professionalism.

 

[eldirector]

Let's try another one.

Was Jeff Cooper wrong to include surprise in his "Principles of Personal Defense"?

Cooper specifically talks about fighting back, and not wilting under the attack. Maybe that is producing a weapon your attacker didn't know you had. More specifically, though, Cooper talks about aggressively resisting - bringing the fight to the attacker. This is something most criminals (in his experience) do not expect.

Of course, other than Cooper's first principle, he is working under the assumption that you have already been selected as a potential victim, and are responding to an attack.

If you do want to learn a bit about "victim selection", and how to avoid being a target in the first place (and not needed Cooper's last 6 Principles), read this study:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oVJOzJLOQAcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Specifically starting on page 84: Victim Selection. This is one part of the argument most commonly used by open carriers.

 

[the1kidd03]

Cooper specifically talks about fighting back, and not wilting under the attack. Maybe that is producing a weapon your attacker didn't know you had. More specifically, though, Cooper talks about aggressively resisting - bringing the fight to the attacker. This is something most criminals (in his experience) do not expect.

Of course, other than Cooper's first principle, he is working under the assumption that you have already been selected as a potential victim, and are responding to an attack.

If you do want to learn a bit about "victim selection", and how to avoid being a target in the first place (and not needed Cooper's last 6 Principles), read this study:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oVJOzJLOQAcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Specifically starting on page 84: Victim Selection. This is one part of the argument most commonly used by open carriers.

Thanks for the link. I'll have to read through it when I have some down time. Does this have a "psychological" perspective to it or more of an analysis of real instances?

 

[iChokePeople]

If you do want to learn a bit about "victim selection", and how to avoid being a target in the first place (and not needed Cooper's last 6 Principles), read this study:
http://books.google.com/books?id=oVJOzJLOQAcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Specifically starting on page 84: Victim Selection. This is one part of the argument most commonly used by open carriers.

I generally CC, but accept the notion that OC provides some level of deterrent. How much? I don't think you could possibly quantify it, but that's ok, I'll stipulate that there is some deterrent effect. For me, though, it's still not that simple, because I have to ask myself what's going to happen next. When some mugger sees me OCing and deselects me, what next? Will he select someone else 10 minutes from now, someone who CAN'T defend himself/herself? Or will seeing your gun release him from his inner demons and turn him from his life of crime? No answers here, just one of the questions that steers MY thinking in this issue.

 

[the1kidd03]

I generally CC, but accept the notion that OC provides some level of deterrent. How much? I don't think you could possibly quantify it, but that's ok, I'll stipulate that there is some deterrent effect. For me, though, it's still not that simple, because I have to ask myself what's going to happen next. When some mugger sees me OCing and deselects me, what next? Will he select someone else 10 minutes from now, someone who CAN'T defend himself/herself? Or will seeing your gun release him from his inner demons and turn him from his life of crime? No answers here, just one of the questions that steers MY thinking in this issue.

That's one of the biggest detractors of OC for me personally. I'd almost prefer they do target me and perhaps things will work out to eliminate a threat to someone less prepared.

 

[eldirector]

Thanks for the link. I'll have to read through it when I have some down time. Does this have a "psychological" perspective to it or more of an analysis of real instances?

I believe it is based on interviews with actual criminals, rather than police reports and victim interviews.

I redd a similar, but more recent, study a year or so ago. I'll see if I can find a link.

Cliff notes: criminals want an easy target that will offer little resistance. It is all risk/reward. If someone looks like they will put up a fight, they will move on. Of course, this assume "random" criminal activity, and the victim was not specifically targeted (lover's quarrel, bad blood, etc....).

 

[the1kidd03]

Cliff notes: criminals want an easy target that will offer little resistance. It is all risk/reward. If someone looks like they will put up a fight, they will move on. Of course, this assume "random" criminal activity, and the victim was not specifically targeted (lover's quarrel, bad blood, etc....).

That would fall in line with all of my research, psychology studies, personal experience, etc.
I'll have to check it out later.