Open Carry Incident - Vincennes

[Dirtebiker]

Is it about noon? Is he wearing the hammer on a tool belt? Is he wearing a shirt that identifies himself as a contractor, maybe with a group of others who OC hammers, then it probably wouldn't be out of place.

1 lone guy with a hammer in his hand in mcdonalds would be out of place

Would it have been less out of place if there had been more than one guy with a rifle?
Your comparison would be closer if the carpenter had his hammer hanging from his tool belt, much like the op's friend had his rifle slung (not in his hands).
if the guy with the rifle, or the (hypothetical) guy with the hammer, had the tool in his hands, or waving it around, and/or yelling or acting strangely, then of course, something should be done to stop him.

I do agree though, that is is "unusual" to carry a rifle (even slung) or hammer (even in a tool belt) into a fast food restaurant.
i wear a tool belt most days, but take it off and leave it in the truck or on the job site.

 

[Birds Away]

I don't necessarily think that taking a long gun into McDonald's is a good idea. I really have no opinion one way or the other. My only concern is the police overreaction and expressing their "opinion" rather than what they are paid to do. Whether or not the police officer believes this to be a smart idea is irrelevant. He could have easily walked in without a commotion and said "Hey, fellas, people are uncomfortable with you having the long gun in here and the manager has expressed that he wants you to leave". That would have been the end of it and everything would have been dandy. If you don't have any more info than "MWAG" when you arrive then whoever took the phone call needs some training.

 

[Dirtebiker]

So did some guy really take his AR15 into McDonald's to order his bigmac? Seriously? And in addition to that seems to be surprised that the police where called? Holy COW! There is no talking to someone like that. Really what kind of person does that and why? Nothing like turning ordinary people against the firearms issue. It worked out real well in California didn't it? Sheezzz guys leave your flipping rifles in the car when you go eat. For anyone with even one ounce of common sense, no one should even be having to mention that was some silly lack of judgement. It ain't complicated guys....if it don't feel right it probably isn't. No rational person is going to feel right walking into McDonalds with a slung long gun.

I don't think anyone, including the op and his friends, are surprised that the police were called. More surprised, or more likely upset by the Leo's reaction after entering the restaurant!

 

[Rhoadmar]

+1 Can't blame the cops for that action.
Course, once they knew the guys were just silly fools, they did not need to berate them in public. A simple, "You idiot! Put the AR in your
car and finish your meal. You're scaring the public! JERK!" would have been sufficient. Slapping the cuffs on them was just Johnny Swatteam showing off.

Of course simply walking up to the citizen who was not breaking any laws and having a polite conversation about how some people are not use to seeing an AR carried in public and then leaving the citizen to decide their conduct is too much to ask.
How do people get used to seeing a long gun carried in public? Of course by no one ever doing it and police over reacting, yeah that'll work.

 

[KLB]

Good on you.

Just wondering how the haters and bashers would handle the thread.

I do not like the way you and your friends were treated but remember, these are troubled times. Folks are scared. Educating them is important but must be done (unfortunately) in a PC manner. Not my world, just the one they have put on me.

These times are no more troubles than those in the past. In many ways they are less so. It is only the 24x7 media blitz that makes it seem so today.

The problem is still that the way the police responded here only contribute to the fear some people feel about guns.

 

[rhino]

Yes

You would then be wrong.

 

[churchmouse]

Oh really.
I have never seen so many mass shootings than in recent times. Bombings, wholesale slaughter.

Yes,media is an ever present force in pushing this into our living rooms and my wife is a freaking news junky. One of the few issues I have with her.

I have seen the level of safety we exist in go down into the cellar. Home invasions, car jackings and murder are a part of living in these times. Murder has always been with us but the rest, no. Drugs and the low esteem life style are on the rise.

Yes my friend, very troubling times when a child will kill the parents for money to get high on.

Yes, bad response....bad choice to carry into business....bad choices all around.

When in history was it "Normal" to sport a long gun except in the old weest. Eve then you checked your guns at the door or with the law if there was any.
Why should it be considered the norm now. It is not the norm. It is something some of us want to be normal. It will never be accepted by the sheeple. I am not one of the sheep but they who are have the PC upper hand like it or not. It is what we have allowed into our society. I have never been a fan of the PC mind set but it is here, it is a power to be dealt with. JMHO of course.

 

[j706]

The thing that amazes me is that police think "normal" and "lawful" are synonomous and anything that breaks the threshold of normal is therefore unlawful.

Nah it isn't that way at all.

 

[KW730]

Nah it isn't that way at all.

I don't think you read the OP then. As has been stated many times, there is a difference between investigating and berating to make a scene while treating law-abiding citizens like criminals.

 

[Trigger Time]

It is amazing how some folks view this.

Not you Kutnup but those who feel that even being "Looked" at by LEO is an infraction of their rights.

No knock on anyone or how they look at the world but really, If I am LEO dispatched to this scene I would have my sidearm in hand as I entered the area. These are trouble and crazy times. People are killing each other for sport.

Yes it is amazing how some folks view
this. No law was broken and some people think its alright to get intimidated by cops with guns out and ready to blow citizens heads off. The use of force scale is starting off too high at deadly force on too many unnecessary occasions. Crime is no different than any other time in history. We just hear about it more. In fact mass shootings and gun crimes are down. Hype hype hype and people fall for it and the militarization of the police continues. And people eat it up like scared little piglets.

 

[SteveM4A1]

Oh really.
I have never seen so many mass shootings than in recent times. Bombings, wholesale slaughter.

Yes,media is an ever present force in pushing this into our living rooms and my wife is a freaking news junky. One of the few issues I have with her.

I have seen the level of safety we exist in go down into the cellar. Home invasions, car jackings and murder are a part of living in these times. Murder has always been with us but the rest, no. Drugs and the low esteem life style are on the rise.

Yes my friend, very troubling times when a child will kill the parents for money to get high on.

CM you need to go look at crime statistics, and stop watching the news. I am not saying we are all safe, and that people aren't crazy, but violent crime has been falling for some time now.

 

[Birds Away]

Nah it isn't that way at all.

Please explain how the scenario in the OP isn't an example of this. Whether or not you agree with what they did, it is not unlawful. Yet they were publically berated after being assaulted with a deadly weapon.

 

[churchmouse]

I don't think you read the OP then. As has been stated many times, there is a difference between investigating and berating to make a scene while treating law-abiding citizens like criminals.

All I can say is times/attitudes sure have changed since I was your age OP. Life and how we see it is relevant to what we have experienced. At your age you have experienced a very PC existence. More the norm now and it is what you perceive as normal where as I see it as crap. Not to worry, me and my kind will be gone soon enough and society will be free to run amok as they see fit regardless of how it effects those around us.
If I were to have pulled this when I was your age I would be recovering in a cell from the butt kicking received when I laughed at the responding LEO. Just the way it was and it worked in those days.
I have been on the receiving end of some of that treatment when doing some A$S hatery (is that even a word...) that I should not have been doing. Mouth off, get your butt kicked.
All that has changed. Can not say it is all a bad thing. Society has drastically changed as well. I only hope the world you folks are creating is safe and sound for my grand-kids.
Respect is vanishing from the world and it's true meaning has been altered to justify a life style most do not agree with . Honor is a word no longer heard. How many people do we honestly trust these days.

Just saying.....Changing attitudes is not done by confrontation. This is the world you are creating, live in it.

Luck to you all.

 

[88GT]

By stating that I'm attempting to discredit your position is implying that I'm against someone carrying a rifle.

Which, quite frankly, pisses me off because I have never said I was for or against someone carrying a rifle.

What was the intent/implication behind your question then?

Get some sleep.

Even in one of the things you quoted- and you are right it was sarcastic, it says: "I fail to see any reason for the police to be called." Yes, sarcastic and yes, I believe it is perfectly reasonable the average citizen to have some level of concern over a [STRIKE]rifle[/STRIKE] handgun in a restaurant and perfectly reasonable for police to respond when called and assess the situation. I've been consistent about this throughout.

What about now? And what's the difference?

Where did I say people should not "be allowed" to do anything. All I said is that every action has logical consequences. I think it's silly and immature to whine when the police ask about why a long gun is carried into a restaurant.

That's funny, because when I mean that someone should just accept the consequences, I SAY "someone should accept the consequences." I don't use irrelevant, specious, and fallacious arguments to bolster an opinion I hold but deny holding.

It would probably be easier for the public to accept the carrying of a firearm in the open if...IT WASN'T A FLIPPING AR.

I don't believe it had the shoulder thingy that went up. It was just a reg'lar AR as far as we know.

You must be privy to info the rest of us don't have. We have no idea what the officers were dispatched to, other than a MWAG in a McDonald's. If I know that there's a man with a gun in a place, and I look in the windows to gain some intel, yet see no one fitting that description, I'm not going to "holster up" and walk in thinking everything is fine.

The OP clearly stated that the responding LEOs peered into the window. While a complete picture isn't necessarily ascertainable, it's obvious no one was waving a gun around in the dining area. Discretion is one thing. But you're a fool if you think the rational response to an MWAG situation of unknown circumstances is to go barging in and demanding "Who has the AR?"

This also brings up a salient side note: dispatch apparently does a ****-poor job of seeking details for the responding LEOs. Is it so hard to ask, "What is the man with the gun doing? "

For some reason folks feel the need or whatever to push themselves on others.

Yes, some do. But you're painting with a broad brush if you think everybody that does something that clashes with societal "norms" is doing to it affect the lives of others. Going about my daily business as I see fit has nothing do with anybody else. It's MY decision. I don't make them to please other people or to anger/offend other people. I make them to please myself and satisfy my own needs/desires. Your position requires that the individual be mindful of his fellow citizens in his decisions. Why can't my fellow citizens be mindful of me? As long as my decisions/behaviors are legal and violate no one else's rights, why shouldn't I be free to do as I please?

In this case many people were made to feel very uncomfortable but that was of no concern to the OP and his "Crew"

So what?

In these troubled times we as gun owners have to use our heads for more than a door stop. Think about what you do in this concern. If I am in a burger joint and someone is making me un-easy I will either leave/confront or deal with it in whatever manner fits the situation. Just because you can do something is it always the right thing to do.

I agree. We should stop letting the frightened ninnies run roughshod over us because they can't handle any alterations to their paradigm. I don't live to make other people feel better or be more comfortable.

Now before the flame throwers come out I am in on the 2A side of this. I just feel that there is a time and a place for every thing and an AR in the McD's is not either. That is my personal opinion and not a statement against this young fools right to do what he did. It disrupted all the people around him and they had to endure a LEO visit with guns drawn. How else did they think this was going to end....Right or wrong they infringed on others....Period.

Then what is your problem with what happened? You have spent considerable time making a point about how we shouldn't disturb the herd. If I am going to take you at your words, then I see you are more concerned with placating the populace than letting free people be free.

They (assuming you mean the OP and his friends) did NOT infringe on others. There wasn't one right the other patrons in that restaurant couldn't exercise at their discretion by the behavior of someone carrying a gun. The patrons were free to go, free to eat, free to fart, free to pray, free to get a re-fill. Making someone uncomfortable is NOT an infringement of his rights. Let me return the favor and say that I took you to have a better grasp of what it means to have rights and exercise them, and what it means for them to be infringed. Quite frankly, if your position has any validity, then you have violated mine.

No one was educated or softened towards seeing a gun.

You don't know that. What we do know is that the response of LE just further justified any irrational fear anyone in that store might have had. Thanks, LE.

One even went so far as to say since the rifle pointer was laughing he did not think it a criminal act. And went on to say that the OP had no proof that it happened at all.

I said that the laughing may have been incidental the rifle. I often laugh when carrying the groceries, or my purse, or my phone. It doesn't mean I'm laughing about my groceries, the purse, or my phone. And I didn't say the OP had no proof it happened. I said the OP had no proof that the laughing was related to the rifle, that the rifle was being deliberately pointed at the school for the purpose of aiming at the school.

So if it is OK to point a gun at people and laugh, I would think it was OK for LEO to point a gun at a AR carrier at McD's.

No, you have it backward. If it's not okay to point a gun at people, it's not okay to point a gun at people. LE is not exempt from that.

 

[88GT]

Just saying.....Changing attitudes is not done by confrontation.

History has already made a liar out of you. Change isn't done by maintaining the status quo either. And confrontation doesn't have to be aggressive or in your face or violent. I would argue that this wasn't confrontation anyway, but I see where you're going with the loose definition of it. Blacks didn't get out from the back of the bus because they kept on using the "colored" restrooms and restaurants. Gays didn't normalize homosexual behavior by staying in the proverbial closet. Solidarity didn't succeed because the Poles just bowed their heads and kept taking it up the tail pipe. The Berlin Wall didn't fall because people gave up and accepted it as the norm forever. Sit-ins, marches, sermons from the pulpit. Activity brings change. Why else do we have OC events at the Capital? Just saying.

 

[Birds Away]

LE is not exempt from that.

All evidence to the contrary.

 

[Trigger Time]

All I can say is times/attitudes sure have changed since I was your age OP. Life and how we see it is relevant to what we have experienced. At your age you have experienced a very PC existence. More the norm now and it is what you perceive as normal where as I see it as crap. Not to worry, me and my kind will be gone soon enough and society will be free to run amok as they see fit regardless of how it effects those around us.
If I were to have pulled this when I was your age I would be recovering in a cell from the butt kicking received when I laughed at the responding LEO. Just the way it was and it worked in those days.
I have been on the receiving end of some of that treatment when doing some A$S hatery (is that even a word...) that I should not have been doing. Mouth off, get your butt kicked.
All that has changed. Can not say it is all a bad thing. Society has drastically changed as well. I only hope the world you folks are creating is safe and sound for my grand-kids.
Respect is vanishing from the world and it's true meaning has been altered to justify a life style most do not agree with . Honor is a word no longer heard. How many people do we honestly trust these days.

Just saying.....Changing attitudes is not done by confrontation. This is the world you are creating, live in it.

Luck to you all.

well my generation (kids of the late 70's and on) didnt cause the problems in this country now or vote for the clowns pre bush# 2. It's the "older folks" who have screwed it up for us grandkids and we will be the ones who WILL fix it. We have fought in the longest wars in U.S. History and come home to have to fix this mess here and I'm sure what its eventualy gonna come down to. So before you check out on us how about you educate yourself on what the real problems and enemies of our country are please

 

[Old_grunt]

This story has gotten WAY more coverage here on INGO than it prolly did in the Vincennes Sun Commercial newspaper.

That rag hasn't been able to cover a story, properly, in decades

 

[churchmouse]

CM you need to go look at crime statistics, and stop watching the news. I am not saying we are all safe, and that people aren't crazy, but violent crime has been falling for some time now.

No knock but the crimes that are committed are growing more violent. I am not a news junky...the wife is.
That bunch that stole an SUV and went around robbing and shooting folks in Browwnsburg....local home invasion crew just recently caught....random drive by's that are usually drug related. Lady gunned down in a convenient store on the north east side after given the POS the money so he shot here for sport.
We had a few shoot outs in our area last summer. Where have you been my friend. These are just a few local incidents. Please do not believe the stats released by the authority's.

 

[SteveM4A1]

No knock but the crimes that are committed are growing more violent. I am not a news junky...the wife is.
That bunch that stole an SUV and went around robbing and shooting folks in Browwnsburg....local home invasion crew just recently caught....random drive by's that are usually drug related. Lady gunned down in a convenient store on the north east side after given the POS the money so he shot here for sport.
We had a few shoot outs in our area last summer. Where have you been my friend. These are just a few local incidents. Please do not believe the stats released by the authority's.

I don't live close to you, so I have no idea on "local" incidents. I do know that I have read statistic after statistic that shows violent crime has dropped (even property crime). I cannot keep my own statistics, therefore I must rely on others' stats. If you have evidence that shows the opposite, I would like to read it.