My daughters problem

[dan lenson]

Congrats to you & your family!

You are all bearing the standard & haven't shrunk away from the challenge.

We support you here in words, thoughts & prayers.

Proud of you & your family!

 

[Libertarian01]

InGunGuy,

Your daughter did a fine job and did nothing wrong! You have done an excellent job in raising her and teaching her to make positive choices in her life.

I feel the need in reading this and all of the good input from everyone here to encourage you to consider seeking a legal remedy to this problem.

Changing schools is an option, true. Putting her in a private school is an option, true. Homeschooling may be an option.

All of this is in her past. Yet, you must consider her future.

How many colleges will she apply to that may demand to see transcripts? How many universities may have a "Zero Tolerance" for prior drug issues?

No one here (myself included) can even begin to guess where things will go five (5) years from now when you daughter is 18 and looking into college admissions.

What could be worse are potential jobs in the future. While there are many companies today that do background checks we cannot tell where this will be in the future. As more and more of our lives become part of the digital age records of school suspensions and the reasons for such suspensions may be used against us just when we have done everything right. Even though we may have a perfectly good explanation for a past situation an employer may not want to take a chance on someone who has shown a propensity for drug possession. After all, she was accused by someone and that is sadly, oft times good enough.

I do hope everything works out for the best for her and your family. Whatever stress you are going through my you have my sympathy! Please explain to your daughter regularly that "NONE OF THIS IS HER FAULT!" Children can think and reason well, but they still blame themselves for problems the family goes through. Many children of divorce think that they somehow caused it, though nothing could be further from the truth.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Doug]

Oops! forgot to include in my previous posts:

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

 

[360]

That's TWO events on the News with INGO members this year!

 

[T-rav]

Congrats for teaching your daughter well and congrats to her for making the right choice. She did the right thing, I would deff push back at the poor decisions the school has made in their decision. Tell your daughter to enjoy pre-spring break!

 

[bighop1]

your girl did well im with doug in the earlier post fire all the teachers who touched the pill kids learn by example

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

We're surrounded by idiocy.

Good on you for standing up against it.

I support you completely.

I'd get the suspension overturned and then home-school her, myself, but that's just me.

Regardless, keep fighting the good fight.

Godspeed.

 

[360]

Is there more to this story you're not telling?

 

[djl02]

I had something similar happen, I bought a carton of cigarettes, and my daughter asked to drive the car to school. Not thinking I told her go ahead. They saw the cigarettes on the seat, and suspended her, plus she had to go to court, because a minor was in possession of tobacco. Cost me 100 dollars court cost and 40 dollars for the cigarettes. She doesnt even smoke. I disagree with zero tolorance as well. I could tell a few stories I've heard about that as well. Feel your pain. Good luck.

 

[Principal Skinr]

InGunGuy,

Your daughter did a fine job and did nothing wrong! You have done an excellent job in raising her and teaching her to make positive choices in her life.

I feel the need in reading this and all of the good input from everyone here to encourage you to consider seeking a legal remedy to this problem.

Changing schools is an option, true. Putting her in a private school is an option, true. Homeschooling may be an option.

All of this is in her past. Yet, you must consider her future.

How many colleges will she apply to that may demand to see transcripts? How many universities may have a "Zero Tolerance" for prior drug issues?

No one here (myself included) can even begin to guess where things will go five (5) years from now when you daughter is 18 and looking into college admissions.

What could be worse are potential jobs in the future. While there are many companies today that do background checks we cannot tell where this will be in the future. As more and more of our lives become part of the digital age records of school suspensions and the reasons for such suspensions may be used against us just when we have done everything right. Even though we may have a perfectly good explanation for a past situation an employer may not want to take a chance on someone who has shown a propensity for drug possession. After all, she was accused by someone and that is sadly, oft times good enough.

I do hope everything works out for the best for her and your family. Whatever stress you are going through my you have my sympathy! Please explain to your daughter regularly that "NONE OF THIS IS HER FAULT!" Children can think and reason well, but they still blame themselves for problems the family goes through. Many children of divorce think that they somehow caused it, though nothing could be further from the truth.

Regards,

Doug

A couple of legal points. You can't seek relief from damages that have not yet occured, so the college thing is not possible because she hasn't been denied entry to a college. Besides, I've never experienced a college asking for transcripts from any grade level below high school, and they don't ask for discipline records. If they did ask, I can't imagine a school complying with the request. I know I'd go tell them to jump in a lake. In fact, as a middle school principal, I would not even give them access to a student's academic record.

What could get legal relief, is denial of her right to attend school, and any direct academic damage that caused. Beyond that, a lawyer would have to chime in. Here's the problem, though. Unfortunately, Zero Tolerance has been tested and upheld in courts across the land. If was voted on and made policy by the school board, then there's not much you can do. By sending your child to the school, you accepted the rules that were in place, even if some are ridiculous, like zero tolerance.

An attorney would be a better person from whom to receive legal advice, so all I offer here is experience, not legal advice.

I'm pretty sure you can't sue for damages that have yet to happen, though. That would be like me suing McDonald's for the heart attack I think I'm going to have for all the years I've eaten their French fries.

Bottom line: Learning experience. Doing the right thing sometimes brings hardship because some people can't recognize it, even when it is right in front of them. It makes me sick to see this happen to a good kid. Trust me, it happens everywhere there is a Zero Tolerance policy.

 

[Principal Skinr]

I had something similar happen, I bought a carton of cigarettes, and my daughter asked to drive the car to school. Not thinking I told her go ahead. They saw the cigarettes on the seat, and suspended her, plus she had to go to court, because a minor was in possession of tobacco. Cost me 100 dollars court cost and 40 dollars for the cigarettes. She doesnt even smoke. I disagree with zero tolorance as well. I could tell a few stories I've heard about that as well. Feel your pain. Good luck.

If anyone has any experiences like this, PM me. I think I could have helped with this one. No guarantees, but it might have worked.

As for the subject of this thread, I would show up at every board meeting and during open comment, share an example from somewhere else where zero tolerance has led to a good kid being wrongly punished. Then, I'd remind them of your daughter's situation, all in a calm, respectful, but firm manner. Let them see where their policy has led and will lead them. Most school boards meet only once per month, so this would not be a huge task. It would be especially good to do it when they have a big crowd, for something like honoring elementary students, or something that draws many parents to the meeting. You can find these examples such as kids who were suspended or expelled for having toe-nail clippers or a Tylenol tablet.

Board members are elected, and shining light on dumb decisions is a great way to get a politician to change, especially on the local level. Dog them until they cry uncle.

 

[Amishman44]

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!!

WAY TO TO RACHAEL!!!! YOU GO GIRL!!!! ATTA-GIRL!!!! YOU DID THE RIGHT THING...NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY OR DO!!!!!


Parents...keep up the public heat! No school system can take very much negative heat from the press...especially bad press! Every child needs to know that their parents 1) believe in them, and 2) support them! Since your daughter did as she had been taught to do...and did it well...she needs your support! I would find a way to publicly 'reward' her with something that will help her to find a positive outcome on what is obviously a ridiculous situation!

I am and have been a high school teacher for years and what they have done to your daughter and your family is terrible. Keep fighting it...don't give this one up...they owe a public apology to Rachael and your family and should give her a parade when they bring her back to school...along with handshakes, high-five's, salutes, etc.

Sadly, common sense is gone from our public school systems nowadays...they've been 'politicalized.' They're all more conserned about numbers and dollars rather than working with students and giving a real education...one they can take with them for life. The fact that your daughter touched it (the drug) and put it back is a technicality and it sounds like the school system is hung up on the technicality.

I voted for Bush and I support(ed) Bush...but the No-Child-Left-Behind Law (which is a novel and ideal concept...but not a good law) is a flawed law and is one of the reasons why things have gotten to where they are in education today!

I can only hope and pray that my 5 y/o daughter will grow up to have the strength and courage to do what your daughter did...to look the other person in the eye and simply say 'no.'

This school system should be heralding your daughter as a hero and portraying her as a model of what being a good student is all about. They've made a mistake with this sitation and the only question that remains is whether or not they have the character to humble themselves and admit it.

Prayers...and please, please, please keep us posted and let us know the outcomes on this ridiculous situation!

 

[Principal Skinr]

As nearly everyone else has said, I think this is

We have zero tolerance rules at Salem Schools as well. It goes not only for drugs, but fighting, etc. All the way down the line. While my kids are pretty darn solid students (knock on wood), I've seen the effects of this first hand.

Principal Skinr - I buy PART of what you are saying, but I have some disagreements, I suspect.

1) I HAVE gotten to know the principals at my kids' schools. All four of my kids are A-B students and don't cause trouble. Getting to know the principal HAS helped and is a good idea. I agree with that. Does it protect my kids from stupid rules? NO. Period. If a kid that is hopped up on drugs takes a swing at another kid. And Kid B moves to defend himself - BOTH will be suspended. No judgement or discretion involved.

2) The rules seem to be written to control the behavior of the lowest common denominator of human debris. I don't deny that these sorts of folks exist. Painfully - that's far too common - you have my sympathy in that respect. You do not have an easy job.

3) Far too often, the rules are written to protect the school district or employee from having to RENDER JUDGEMENT or EXERCISE DISCRETION. This is where trouble begins, in my opinion.

Given the above - I see a LOT of similarities between a high school principal and a county sheriff...

a) Both are required to deal with the dregs of society - and there's no getting around that. It's the brutal truth.
b) Both have to exercise a great deal of discretion - and the decisions that they make WILL alter lives forever.
c) Both have to make tough calls with sometimes limited information.
d) Both have the option of hiding behind the law - or standing up for what's RIGHT.

Given that - we heap praise on a Sheriff in Colorado who decides to take a stand, think for himself and uphold the _principles_ of the Constitution. How is it different when a school administrator is given the choice of hiding behind the legalistic wall of or standing for something and doing what's RIGHT? I can only WISH that neither were put in the position to choose. That said, both are, and on a regular basis.

I'm confident that there MUST be cases where a principal has told a school board to shove it in a situation like the above - I can't recall ever hearing of it. What would happen (just for grins) if the principal allowed this young lady back into school on the merits of the situation? And said "screw the rules - this is the RIGHT thing to do"?? Would the school board REALLY have the cojones to fire him over it? REALLY??? For negating the suspension of a young lady that had the guts to say NO??

If so - the public would have the school board on a stick!

Our system WORKS - but it requires SOMEONE to have the courage to stand up and say - THIS IS WRONG!

I agree that we should make our voices heard. Yes, we can go to the school board and try to swim our way up the river of sewage and lawyerball. Maybe we might succeed in making a SMALL dent in the system. The further I go - the more I despair of this route, and lean towards voting with my feet. And people wonder why home schooling continues to increase in popularity?

And all we are offered are lame-*** explanations for brainless rulings like this. I continue to search for a good reason to continue in the current path with my kid's educations.... and the answers are thin...


Please forgive my skepticism - and I certainly mean no disrespect. I will be the FIRST to jump in line and help out ANY principal who has the guts to take a stand on stuff like this. Just as I will be one of the first to thank a Sheriff for keep his Oath and taking a stand.

I have no right to demand that someone take a stand like this - but if someone did, it would sure restore some of my faith in people in positions like this.

I don't disagree with you on any of this. I know several principals, who in fact, have resigned over stupid stuff like this, or at least told them to shove it. One is an assistant principal who wanted to expel and prosecute a kid for taking a leak on a food item and giving it to an unsuspecting kid, who ate it. (That is a form of battery, and would easily be prosecuted) The perpetrator was a basketball star, and it was basketball season. The principal, and all above him, including the board, told him to leave it alone. The perp did not miss one game or day of school. My friend quit at the end of the year, even though he had a new baby at home and his wife did not work. (He did land on his feet, though, as competent people usually do.) I was a teacher once in a school district in Texas that had Zero Tolerance. In fact, it is particularly popular in Texas, because it sounds tough. I saw incident after incident where no one could use common sense, and it was miserable.

Most schools do not have this silly policy. However, too many still do, and remember, it is the community who usually demands it or at least supports it. It is school boards who come up with this crap. I have yet to meet a principal who likes Zero Tolerance. If I met one, I'd wonder what was wrong with him or her.

As for your first scenario, while it is rare, I have had kids physically defend themselves who I did not suspend, or punish in any way, with no pressure either way from superiors. However, keep in mind, there's usually more to the story than meets the eye, such as some kind of provocation. It isn't alwasy so one sided, and we usually hear these stories from someone who has a vested interest. Most of our kids make it through their entire school careers without getting in a fight. It isn't that hard.

One of the things we've done is establish a Dad's organization to make it easy to get to know us and to let them be mentors to kids. It has done amazing things for our kids and Dads, as well, and has fostered trust and good will, as well as understanding. We've dealt with some difficult and painful issues, but the cooperation and trust has gotten us through them and has ultimately been good for kids. That's an easy way to start. I can tell you, our Dad's president knows the school board members, too, and if he has a concern, he has their ears. That's another advantage. It makes it real hard for them to do something detrimental to a kid and parent that they know well. It makes them think more deeply about their decisions.

Sorry guys for writing a book here, but this whole mess is a serious issue that requires more than just a pissed off reaction and a blanket condemnation of schools as a whole. The good schools and competent administrators don't make the headlines, and they get stained when the morons out there do. I'm passionate about it because I deal weekly with people coming into my office assuming we will always do the wrong thing, until they get to know us. It is the same thing with parents. Because my school is high poverty, many educators think the parents are all lousy, mistreat their kids, and don't value education. That couldn't be further from the truth, either. Some of my poorest (financially) parents are role models for me on how to raise kids with character.

Rachael's dad sounds like one of those parents. She'll survive this, and with guidance from her dad, she'll be even stronger for it. She may even learn how to change something wrong with her school system.

One political note: Our state Superintendent, Dr. Bennett, endorsed this dumb policy while he was in that district, and did nothing to change it. Our beloved governor likes it, too. Makes you wonder about some of the thought that goes into other priorities in education, right? (Sorry, I digress!)

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Bottom line: Learning experience. Doing the right thing sometimes brings hardship because some people can't recognize it, even when it is right in front of them. It makes me sick to see this happen to a good kid. Trust me, it happens everywhere there is a Zero Tolerance policy.

Here's exactly what frustrates me (and this is NOT a personal attack on you - PLEASE don't take it wrongly - I don't intend it that way!)....

First, this happens all of the time - I can cite several examples of it happening in Salem schools on a lesser level. None of them are as crystal clear as this one in Jeffersonville...

And all we get is the same line from administrators... go to the meetings, talk softly to these JackHoles on the school board and MAYBE they will see the wisdom in your argument. I get that, and I've done that - in places where it's been my kid, and I felt it would make a difference. Most of the time, it would only make matters worse.

Just once... I'd LOVE to see an administrator actually have the balls to ACT. Instead of hiding behind the systems' skirts, why aren't we seeing the Administrator in question say something like this: "Look, this Zero Tolerance thing is BS. This is a clear cut case of an injustice being done. I WILL GO WITH YOU TO THE SCHOOL BOARD TO HELP CHANGE THIS. Further, while I may be forced to _technically_ impose whatever sanctions are specified, i will take every possible measure to see to it that the damage inflicted by the zero tolerance policy is mitigated..."

I see no such effort in this case....

All we get is "System is broke... sucks to be you... thank you for playing.."

See why we're frustrated and are voting with our feet?

I know it's not you - really I do! But that's the root of the frustration that's going to lead to the downfall of the public school system.

 

[indianajoe]

...his various comments

Repped for wading into a discussion where he's sure to take fire, acknowledging inconsistencies in the system while standing up for his profession, and providing some balance and perspective from a seat none of the rest of us occupy.

 

[Doug]

How about this:
At every school board meeting, ask why the students are held to a higher standard of conduct than the teachers and administrators.
Rachael touched, but refused, the pill and was suspended. Every staff member that touched those pills should be suspended.

Sorry if it seems like I'm , but it seems important to me that the students are being given a very bad example. "Do as I say, not as I do" and, as long as you can say, "There's a rule," you can do anything, no matter how unfair or damaging it is.
The School Board needs to be shamed into changing this.

Doug

 

[INGunGuy]

Is there more to this story you're not telling?

NOTHING at all! My daughters story has been corroborated by the other girls accounts of what happened. The School Board president has communicated with the school superintendent and the school board president agrees with me, that the punishment is unwarranted.

WAY TO GO RACHAEL!!!

INGunGuy

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Principal Skinr -

I concur with indianajoe... reps for explaining and taking on a tough situation here. Please understand that most everyone does understand that an administrator is in a tough spot. You've cited some good examples. And I agree with your points. Including the part about most of the time there being some provocation. Not all all cases are as crystal clear as this one with this young lady. This one seems very clear-cut. I fear that there are too few people like you in your profession. That is the reason that these are not isolated incidents. And that many people have seen cases like this (again, perhaps not this black and white)

Thank you for what you do. I wish that people like you didn't have to succeed IN SPITE OF THE SYSTEM, but rather, with the SUPPORT of the system. Sadly, that's not the case... And as you say, we've lost a lot of _good_ teachers and administrators because they wouldn't put up with the institutional crap. That's unfortunate. A lot of parents have decided that they can't fight it and "swim upstream" either. I, for one, can't blame them. The frustration level is getting higher - but for now, I have not reached the point that many of my friends have.

I appreciate your honest and heartfelt comments. Please understand that there are honest parents like my wife and I (and obviously many of the others around here at INGO, based on the comments ) who are TRYING to do what's right for their kids. And are extremely dismayed at crap like what happened in this case. Sometimes that gets expressed in anger. Hopefully that anger gets channeled and targeted at the right parties in the system.

 

[Principal Skinr]

Here's exactly what frustrates me (and this is NOT a personal attack on you - PLEASE don't take it wrongly - I don't intend it that way!)....

First, this happens all of the time - I can cite several examples of it happening in Salem schools on a lesser level. None of them are as crystal clear as this one in Jeffersonville...

And all we get is the same line from administrators... go to the meetings, talk softly to these JackHoles on the school board and MAYBE they will see the wisdom in your argument. I get that, and I've done that - in places where it's been my kid, and I felt it would make a difference. Most of the time, it would only make matters worse.

Just once... I'd LOVE to see an administrator actually have the balls to ACT. Instead of hiding behind the systems' skirts, why aren't we seeing the Administrator in question say something like this: "Look, this Zero Tolerance thing is BS. This is a clear cut case of an injustice being done. I WILL GO WITH YOU TO THE SCHOOL BOARD TO HELP CHANGE THIS. Further, while I may be forced to _technically_ impose whatever sanctions are specified, i will take every possible measure to see to it that the damage inflicted by the zero tolerance policy is mitigated..."

I see no such effort in this case....

All we get is "System is broke... sucks to be you... thank you for playing.."

See why we're frustrated and are voting with our feet?

I know it's not you - really I do! But that's the root of the frustration that's going to lead to the downfall of the public school system.

No offense taken. I've seen administrators take on issues and put their jobs on the line. That is the stuff that doesn't make headlines, and that's why you've never heard of it. I've also seen it when no one is there standing beside them.

It is hard to fight against a wrong created by a community that thinks they are helping their schools take a "get tough" approach. Most people, administrators included, don't have the stomach to put anything on the line. That's easier to do when it is your own kid. It is even easier than that behind a computer keyboard. Harder to do when it is your job and you have to put food on the table, but you are trying to defend someone else's kid.

I thank God I work for people with common sense, in a community with common sense. Of course, that's what I was looking for when deciding where to work.

This is a frustrating issue. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for INGuy.

I'm not a martyr or hero, either. I haven't had to put my family's well-being on the line yet.

One thing folks have to understand. School administrators have to make thousands of decisions every year that are very serious for those affected by them. Each one is high stakes, yet even the best person has to reasonably be expected to make mistakes, or even calls that not everyone agrees with. For example, I currently have a dad wanting to sue me for not letting him shadow his daughter in class. He wants to find a boy that propositioned her for sex and probably beat the crap out of him, or at least confront him. The boy did indeed do this, and has had consequences for it, both at school and at home. I'm not about to let this guy come in, hurt this kid, and disrupt the school at the same time. As a father of 5 girls, I understand how he feels. If he called me a Jackhole, that would be a step up from what he thinks of me right now.

Back to the issue: The school board is where it is at with Zero Tolerance, not the principal, even if the principal foolishly supports it. (Understanding that not enforcing board policy is grounds for immediate termination) It sounds like INGuy has a good start with a sympathetic school board president. The school board president controls the agenda of the meetings. That person can easily give him the floor to speak out and try and reverse this ridiculous policy. By the way, even if INGuy's story weren't true, it is still true that Zero Tolerance is a dumb idea, and the way it works makes his story entirely believeable, to me.

Thanks guys for the great discussion. I deal with this stuff everyday, so I'm going to head back to the gun stuff now to relax a little this weekend.
I can't tell you how much I enjoy Ingo and all the great people around here.

 

[SSGSAD]

Way to go Rachel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here what I haven't read here, everone is forgetting that LIBERALS, are IN CHARGE of Education, I do not care if you are a Dem., or Rep., Liberal schools, Liberal Colleges, produce LIBERALS, PERIOD... Now I know some of you are going to say, I'm not a Liberal and I went to college, etc.. That is fine, When did you go to College ? 20 years ago ???? Anyway the point is this.... Liberals want to say, look I did something, they do not care about the consequenses, they just want to say, look what I did, zero tolerance... I'm great... then the rest of us has to live with whatever stupid thing they did... just like Rachel... I want to know what happened to the other girl, (person) that had the pill in the first place.... Was this a set-up, (not a conspiracy, NOT going there!)... did she(he) get suspended ???? Why wasn't parents contacted immediately ??? When my daughter was in school Wayne twsp. & Decatur twsp., there was a story going around the news about a young girl, having to disrobe, because the principal asked her to, I told my daughter NEVER to do such a thing, to have that person to call her mother and me, and to politely refuse to do that.... sorry for the length... just my experience, and