Spot Me 2
Expert
lets not fight we are all here for the same reasons i hope
Lately I don't think "we" are. That is why I haven't been posting much here lately either.
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Lately I don't think "we" are. That is why I haven't been posting much here lately either.
Spot Me 2
Expert
While I don't agree with all of what has been posted, let try to remember what we are talking about. This is a heated issue. I don't know why we all aren't supporting anyones Ideas to stand up for ours rights at this point. They are being taken away faster than you can list them.
Everyone has different boiling points, and some people are more sensitive than others. It's also hard to "hear" what is being typed. You don't hear the tone or sarcasim. I know when I am speaking with my friends name calling means nothing. It's just part of how some people talk. Let it roll of your back, and let continue the debate.
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I am not for or against this idea (whatever legally that it can be called) but I am against all of the fence sitters and anti gunners who are supposedly pro gun rights. Sometime words do not translate into intent or true meaning of the idea. SE has come a long way and has tried to approach this in a positive, legal way. I support that.
What he also misses is that the rise of people publically "coming out" and the start of these various "gay pride" parades were the lead in to more recognition of equal rights for gays and lesbians. Those parades were not the sole reason for that recognition, but were a part of the total package. And today we're in the position that some entertainers now publically "come out" in an effort to revitalize flagging careers. A long way from the day where having folk learn one was a homosexual led to virtually complete shunning by the straight community.
As I have implied through my question before: rights are not preserved by hiding them or their practice.
The main reason I see for the Long Gun OC is that the Long guns are simply more visible than an OC'ed handgun at one's hip. And just like events like the various gay pride parades gave other gays and lesbians the courage to come out, events like this if repeated both here and elsewhere can be a spark to more people exercising their rights which is, really, the only way the right can be protected.
Asides:
"Even after all the gay pride parades, there are still...." There will always be bigots. That's part of the dark side of human nature. In like vein, nothing is going to sway the likes of Helmke, Boxer, Pelosi, Holder, etc. They are not the targets of the walk (not directly). Instead, the targets of the walk are folk who already recognize the value and importance of the 2nd Amendment and to help encourage them to "come out of the closet." (IMO)
"Christian Principles" Sorry, but "christian" covers an awful lot of ground, and the majority of that ground (at least in my experience) is perfectly willing to leave that issue between the individual and God (as conceived by those folk. I grew up in one of the "stricter" Christian sects (although some make the claim that it's not truly Chritian, those claims are usually based on misrepresentations of the actual doctrine), and even there, the rule was to convert by love and fellowship, not by beating up gays/lesbians. Bigotry is bigotry whether one dresses it up in "christian principles" or not. Too many forget Matthew 7:1-2, John 8:3-11, Matthew 5:44, and many others.
But If I'm not for it that some how means I'm a fence sitter or anti-gunner. I don't quite see how that works. The OP brought up legitimate concerns and was denounced for that. Thats were I start having a problem.
BloodEclipse
Grandmaster
No one is telling you what to believe. Free men think for themselves and while men may agree on some things the level in which they believe in them can be varied.
I just happen to disagree that a walk event will be a harm to gunowners in the long run.
I want to do everything within my ability to preserve those rights for my children and grandchildren.
By not showing up doesn't mean you don't believe in gun rights, it just means you have a different path to follow to protect them.
I won't say your way is wrong if you show me the same courtesy.
If the OP was NOT participating then I'll disagree that they were NOT legitimate concerns for him. If he had questions, or concerns then why not attend the meeting or post his questions in the OP to clarify or to state his concerns. No, I think that this post was meant to stir the pot and we can agree to disagree
SavageEagle
Grandmaster
- Apr 27, 2008
- 19,568
- 38
I'm not against anyone for not agreeing with me. We all have the same goal. I'm just trying to point out that writing letters and making phone calls are not working. You want to see what is working? Just go check out the Tea Parties and the Rallies against Healthcare. Standing up and DOING something about their rights is winning them back. That's all I'm trying to do. I don't care if you come or not. I don't care if you agree with me or not. It doesn't make you any less patriotic. It doesn't make you any less American.
Me, I'm doing something about my rights. I'm not going to sit down and be silent anymore. I pissed away half my life being silent. Not any more.
You can join me or not. If not you will be missed. If you do you will have more of my respect. But if you slam me for doing this you have none of my respect.
Now I'm going to ride bikes with my kids and look for a real job now that my babysitting days are behind me. Please don't make your decisions about the Walk based on this thread. Base it on what you feel is right. Not what other people say.
Me, I'm doing something about my rights. I'm not going to sit down and be silent anymore. I pissed away half my life being silent. Not any more.
You can join me or not. If not you will be missed. If you do you will have more of my respect. But if you slam me for doing this you have none of my respect.
Now I'm going to ride bikes with my kids and look for a real job now that my babysitting days are behind me. Please don't make your decisions about the Walk based on this thread. Base it on what you feel is right. Not what other people say.
I think it is OK to say you think one way is wrong. Critisim should be fine.
The point of my post was not to say that the protest march shouldn't happen. My point was to say that I don't think the message is being discussed and I don't think the message will get out properly if not presented carefully.
Note: I didn't post it in the organization thread as it didn't belong there IMHO. I know I was dreaming when I thought a productive dialog would develop in this thread, but I'd have to be smoking something pretty strong to think it would have developed more positively in that thread.
I think some good points have been made here. I appreciate those that have expressed them in a positive thoughtful manner. I'm not conviced that the march will produce a positive effect nor that the message will be heard... hopefully, though, a message will be well defined and expressed clearly for ALL of those who see the march going on.
Props to you guys for doing something, but as is so often applied to the health care debate, it isn't right to do something just to do something.... the RIGHT thing must be done. If you aren't open to critisicm from within the gun community, just wait until you get out in the real world.
The OP can choose not to participate and still have an opinion and if I'm not incorrect can still voice that opinion, and do so with out personally attacking others (which is what he did). I hope the the walk, parade, demonstration, or what ever it is called goes GREAT and does a lot of good for everyone, including the anti's (by waking them up to responsible gun ownership). That said I still don't agree with it (but I guess thats my right). I will speak up if I feel someone is attacked unfairly and that again is my right.
I will fight the anti's my way, you do it your way. Just try to remember we are all on the same side.
To ALL my INGO brothers, got nothing but love for you all. And ain't it a great country that we can still agree to disagree.
I will fight the anti's my way, you do it your way. Just try to remember we are all on the same side.
To ALL my INGO brothers, got nothing but love for you all. And ain't it a great country that we can still agree to disagree.
The OP can choose not to participate and still have an opinion and if I'm not incorrect can still voice that opinion, and do so with out personally attacking others (which is what he did). I hope the the walk, parade, demonstration, or what ever it is called goes GREAT and does a lot of good for everyone, including the anti's (by waking them up to responsible gun ownership). That said I still don't agree with it (but I guess thats my right). I will speak up if I feel someone is attacked unfairly and that again is my right.
I will fight the anti's my way, you do it your way. Just try to remember we are all on the same side.
To ALL my INGO brothers, got nothing but love for you all. And ain't it a great country that we can still agree to disagree.
Good Post
BloodEclipse
Grandmaster
If you had led with your last sentence first maybe others would not have felt you were merely trying to derail this event.
Lets continue the discussion and keep it civil.
Merits of an OC Event
I'll engage you according to your Note.
I think you're close to the money on the point of the Walk, but not right on it. Yes, the point is to express that we do have the right to carry long guns, as well as open carry personal defense weapons, but it isn't the "only message".
While that is a large portion of it, the guns, especially the larger ones, are, in my mind, an attention-grabber. They serve the purpose of getting bystanders to notice the Walkers. The hope, then, is that at least some of those people will strike up a conversation with us, allowing us to answer questions about various gun related or gun-law related things. I didn't bother looking back through all ~40 pages of the Event's thread to quote the specific post, but I recall seeing SavageEagle (the organizer) mention that this was to be an "educational" event.
I do agree that your fear isn't impossible. It is conceivable that there could be a social or legal backlash against open carry events. However, it is my opinion that this is unlikely in Indiana. Yes, there are those among us (Hoosiers) who would love to see more strict gun control laws, but I claim there are not enough of them to create a major issue in our State.
Those things considered, I believe that the use of openly carried long guns and handguns will adequately serve the purpose of being a conversation-starter on the street, allowing the Walkers to educate passers-by, without creating an unwanted backlash leading to more strict laws.
To support the educational purpose of the Walk, SavageEagle has promised to have papers readily available to be passed out. I'm not positive, but I would expect these papers to have relevant laws allowing us to Walk, laws allowing us to open carry, and some talking points for why we want to carry in the first place.
I do know that the organizer noted a desire to have several spokesmen spread throughout the group who would serve as go-to folks for any media or other citizens. And while I may not be one of the designated spokesmen, I'll be willing to talk to anyone who asks me questions as well.
So there it is, bigus_D. That is my reasoning for participating. Always glad to engage in an actual debate of topics with another fellow capable of debating without descending into arguments ad hominem.
//C
I'll engage you according to your Note.
I think you're close to the money on the point of the Walk, but not right on it. Yes, the point is to express that we do have the right to carry long guns, as well as open carry personal defense weapons, but it isn't the "only message".
While that is a large portion of it, the guns, especially the larger ones, are, in my mind, an attention-grabber. They serve the purpose of getting bystanders to notice the Walkers. The hope, then, is that at least some of those people will strike up a conversation with us, allowing us to answer questions about various gun related or gun-law related things. I didn't bother looking back through all ~40 pages of the Event's thread to quote the specific post, but I recall seeing SavageEagle (the organizer) mention that this was to be an "educational" event.
I do agree that your fear isn't impossible. It is conceivable that there could be a social or legal backlash against open carry events. However, it is my opinion that this is unlikely in Indiana. Yes, there are those among us (Hoosiers) who would love to see more strict gun control laws, but I claim there are not enough of them to create a major issue in our State.
Those things considered, I believe that the use of openly carried long guns and handguns will adequately serve the purpose of being a conversation-starter on the street, allowing the Walkers to educate passers-by, without creating an unwanted backlash leading to more strict laws.
To support the educational purpose of the Walk, SavageEagle has promised to have papers readily available to be passed out. I'm not positive, but I would expect these papers to have relevant laws allowing us to Walk, laws allowing us to open carry, and some talking points for why we want to carry in the first place.
I do know that the organizer noted a desire to have several spokesmen spread throughout the group who would serve as go-to folks for any media or other citizens. And while I may not be one of the designated spokesmen, I'll be willing to talk to anyone who asks me questions as well.
So there it is, bigus_D. That is my reasoning for participating. Always glad to engage in an actual debate of topics with another fellow capable of debating without descending into arguments ad hominem.
//C
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well I think if you have to bring guns to an event to get attention it does more harm than good, it looks confrontational to the general public. then when the public is scared the 90% liberal media pounce on it and whatever good points you have are negated through created editing. and with the presence of guns there will be presence of police(for security) which costs tax money for you to get the point across that you could have done without arms present. I would much rather convert 1 liberal and have him spread the message(liberals listen to each other
) then argue with a crowd of liberals and just have a sore throat the next day.
) then argue with a crowd of liberals and just have a sore throat the next day.
BloodEclipse
Grandmaster
well I think if you have to bring guns to an event to get attention it does more harm than good, it looks confrontational to the general public. then when the public is scared the 90% liberal media pounce on it and whatever good points you have are negated through created editing. and with the presence of guns there will be presence of police(for security) which costs tax money for you to get the point across that you could have done without arms present. I would much rather convert 1 liberal and have him spread the message(liberals listen to each other
You assume everyone we pass on the street will be a liberal?
We will have video rolling as well and will use the power of Facebook, Twitter, Blogs and youtube to show how the media twists the message. We can even link our videos into the discussion forums on the stories from the TV stations and the newspapers. Don't think it can only be bad. We have a voice and will use it.
well I think if you have to bring guns to an event to get attention it does more harm than good, it looks confrontational to the general public. then when the public is scared the 90% liberal media pounce on it and whatever good points you have are negated through created editing. and with the presence of guns there will be presence of police(for security) which costs tax money for you to get the point across that you could have done without arms present. I would much rather convert 1 liberal and have him spread the message(liberals listen to each other
So we shouldn't carry firearms to pro-firearm events because that is confrontational? Huh?
What about carrying a firearm to an event because it is my right and duty to protect myself, and that is the manner I choose to do just that?
Exactly. We have State pre-emption (somewhat limited, but for this purpose, we have it). That means that the City of Indianapolis cannot prohibit the carrying of guns on the public thoroughfares.
Any legislation to prohibit the "open carry" of long guns would have to get out of committee in both houses of the State Legislature (unlikley--what has worked against us can now work for us). It would have to pass both houses (also apparently unlikely with the current legislature). It would have to be signed by the governor (again, unlikely with the current Governor).
Most of the "negatives" people cite really come under the heading of "taking counsel from one's fears." Are there risks? There are risks to anything, but to that I simply cite John Paul Jones' famous dictum (No, not that one, the other one).
Okay, I'll tell:
"He who will not risk, cannot win."
John Paul Jones
At first I was not into this idea very much but after reading and participating in the discussion I have come to the conclusion YES WE CAN. My apologies to those with dissenting view points but you have to understand this is only one of many ideas that continually get opposed by the very people that we are supposed to be aligned with. We will never be total agreement in how the message is delivered. I never had a question on what the message is; to me it’s very clear. “Don’t tread on me”
The real problem is that we have become conditioned on what is politically correct. What is acceptable? I feel a lot of people are just hanging around to see what happens, this is what I call “sitting on the fence”. I can say this because I have been sitting on the fence too. How will the media portray us? Personally I don’t care, I will portray myself for who I am and no amount of bad media will change that for me. When I go home at night I will be greeted by a hug from my wife and kids no matter what. If our fight is against the media then we have all ready lost. If our fight is against public perception, then we have all ready lost. Our fight is against ourselves and until we all stand united our message will be forever lost. I don’t want to risk hurt feelings and call anyone scared but really what are you waiting for? Nobody is asking you to break the law or pretend to be something you are not. If you don’t want to carry a long gun, don’t. If you don’t want to OC, then don’t. Just show up and walk with us. I think you are waiting on me, so I will walk with you.
The real problem is that we have become conditioned on what is politically correct. What is acceptable? I feel a lot of people are just hanging around to see what happens, this is what I call “sitting on the fence”. I can say this because I have been sitting on the fence too. How will the media portray us? Personally I don’t care, I will portray myself for who I am and no amount of bad media will change that for me. When I go home at night I will be greeted by a hug from my wife and kids no matter what. If our fight is against the media then we have all ready lost. If our fight is against public perception, then we have all ready lost. Our fight is against ourselves and until we all stand united our message will be forever lost. I don’t want to risk hurt feelings and call anyone scared but really what are you waiting for? Nobody is asking you to break the law or pretend to be something you are not. If you don’t want to carry a long gun, don’t. If you don’t want to OC, then don’t. Just show up and walk with us. I think you are waiting on me, so I will walk with you.
well I think if you have to bring guns to an event to get attention it does more harm than good, it looks confrontational to the general public. then when the public is scared the 90% liberal media pounce on it and whatever good points you have are negated through created editing. and with the presence of guns there will be presence of police(for security) which costs tax money for you to get the point across that you could have done without arms present. I would much rather convert 1 liberal and have him spread the message(liberals listen to each other
This "convert one liberal" strategy has not exactly been working very well for us for the past 75 years. The problem is that they are busy trying to convert as well, have deeper pockets and, frankly, a more organized approach to politics.
So other then sticking with a strategy that has given us NFA '34, CGA '68, the 922(o) provision of FOPA '86, the Brady Bill, ASW-I, and so on, what is your suggestion?
BloodEclipse
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