Longguns Downtown: What is the point?

[USMC_0311]

I understand the "don't tread on me" sentiment. When it comes to the Tea Parties, this quote certainly applies. They are protesting against continued and ongoing growth of big government. They are saying that the government is overstepping its bounds and we won't stand for it. Note: I posted a very similar thread some time ago asking what the point of the Tea Parties actually was... that thread, as this one, ended up being at least a little educational for me.

What I don't understand with this non-protest walk is that there isn't a clear agenda (at least clear to me) that is "treading" on our 2nd amendment rights... especially not here in Indiana... especially not now. Some will say that I'm way off base with that comment, and maybe they would be right... but unless this agenda is identified as part of the message, I don't quite get it.

I am not sure if we have to have a clearly defined agenda. Why can't it be simply a public display of us excersing our rights. We can't wait for that perfect scenario because that does not exist. What better place the here in Indiana and what better time then right now? Its legal here and it is a hot topic. Why not be pro active? I don't want to wait for a real threat. I look at it like Bush did on the war on terrorism. Let’s take the fight to them and not wait until they bring it to us. Then it will be too late.
We all are law abiding adults so let’s just show up and walk. No strings attached, you be responsible for your own actions. I hope to see people from all walks of life show up, from bankers to bikers, from CEO's to union members. We are not going to represent INGO or NRA just our selves, law abiding Hoosiers.

 

[SavageEagle]

I am staring to understand the purpose of the walk. I see what you are all saying. I'm just a kid (in my early thirties)... I even went to a LIBERAL arts college. But I see the point that is being made. Beit the re-normalization of guns, or protecting the constitution, or variations thereon: key to me is that this message is presented clearly to those who see this walk (the media, the police, the people). Rep to SavageEagle for opening a thread to facilitate communication on the message and Statement of Intent. I think that, in and of itself, will help this walk acheive its goal more than anything else. I'm glad I started this thread and hope that people put a lot of thought into the message that ends up being definied.

Just for the record, I'm a pimply-faced 27y/o that still has high hopes for this Country.

That's me with my oldest daughter handing out Pocket Constitutions at the Tax Day Tea Party. And yes I was OCing my Baby Eagle at the State House, on the sidewalk, you just can't see it for my jacket. An officer saw it and we talked at length of the reliablity of the Jericho pistol series. He was impressed.

I'm glad we finally see eye to eye on this. I do respect you and your opinion. I wish you would eventually join us. You don't have to carry at all if you don't want. Just bring a camera!

 

[techres]

Yes, I opened a thread to discuss talking points. I would also like to see some ideas for educational material. Maybe dates and times for the next Appleseed would be a good place to start.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...-message_and_talking_points_for_the_walk.html

Please talk to Hawkhavn before passing Appleseed stuff. Heck, ATM and Hawkhavn could chat on that one (ATM is on your march list and one of our Orange hats).

Thanks!

 

[SavageEagle]

Please talk to Hawkhavn before passing Appleseed stuff. Heck, ATM and Hawkhavn could chat on that one (ATM is on your march list and one of our Orange hats).

Thanks!

Gotcha!

 

[dburkhead]

I hope you have realized by now that what the politicians say during elections and what they do after they are in office are 2 different things.

That doesn't answer the question.

It seems that you think this "walk" is going to somehow change the happenings in Indianapolis and Washington. Just like the tea parties stopped the stimulus, and other spending bills that will no doubt cause a rise in taxes??

Um, no, actually. It's what's called a start.

Imagine you are in a boat. It's been leaking for a long time and water is now up to your waist (it's a big boat). You have a teacup to bail with. Maybe the teacup is enough to bail faster than water is coming in and maybe it's not. Either way, you won't see much difference in the level of water for a while.

And when you start bailing with your teacup, imagine other people coming along, sloshing through the water and saying that your bailing is a waste of time, you should do what they've been doing (let's say, just for analogies sake, it's to drink the water as fast as they can and urinate over the side). Well, the water got this deep doing it their way and when you suggest maybe they should grab a teacup and start bailing alongside you, they just go back to drinking and urinating. That's good, I suppose. It's getting rid of some of the water, but won't empty the boat by itself (otherwise it would have kept the water from getting this deep in the first place).

So the one man with a teacup is not going to do much, certainly not quickly, by himself. But the one man with the teacup added to what was already being done does change the "balance of water flow" in the leaky boat. And if he gets other people to grab more teacups, that balance shifts even further.

Nobody's expecting an overnight change. And, to be honest, it may be "too little, too late." We'd better hope not, though because the results if that's the case do not bear thinking about.

For the record, I am not against what you are doing, in fact I think it is a good idea. That being said, it has been suggested that if it is not labeled as a march or parade, and lacks some set forth criteria, that no permits and other legalities are needed, my question was: Why not pony up and make it a full on event?

If I could just drop the cash to get the permits, buy the liability insurance, and do this as a full parade, I would do so. I suspect SE and most of the others would as well. However, we don't have it.

Sometimes you don't do what you'd like, you do what you can.

Get your point and message across with more than the hope that someone will "ask". Furthermore, if the "tactics" I use to educate my children, and people close to me do not suit you and you believe that they will only lead to more gun laws (as you suggested above) that is fine with me, at least I know that they have the knowledge to make informed dedcisions, and can provide for themselves without the aid of welfare, food stamps and the like.

You misunderstand. I am not saying that those tactics don't "suit me" or that those tactics were what led to the gun laws we have, or even that they aren't worth doing. I'm saying that they have been demonstrated to not be enough to stop more gun laws. That is an important distinction.

If people really want to restore our rights under the 2nd Amendment, they have to start looking for things to do beyond the things that have, at best, slowed down the assaults on the 2nd.

The teaching the children and talking to others one on one is something that folk have been doing all along. And, although it's been worthwhile, it hasn't been enough. If that's all you're willing to do, well, every little bit helps and I'll take what we can get.

Good Luck to all of you who are participating in the walk, I truely hope it is a success.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I'm sure most of you sat there & said, "they've got a set of brass ones" when you saw the OC displays on the news. Well, if you have such high regard for the act, why are you so reluctant to follow suit?

I'm not reluctant at all to do what ever I want to.

I'm reluctant to blanket endorse this group and apprehensive to have them declaring their representation of gun owners in general and me as a gun owner in particular.

I've been here long enough to read the bi-monthly new threads about people here's negligent discharges, their going out to "educate" only to be buffaloed by teen age store clerks, and then see people who've given out advice and posted like they were an expert only to see after thousands of posts they don't know what kind of amo to use in their gun, if it's safe to use, how to adjust the sights on their own gun, read about their dropping their own gun out of their pants, they don't want to pay their own medical bills, they moved their girlfriend and kids in with their mommy, think it's just dandy to load up their pistols and head out for a night of bar hopping,... blah blah blah blah

These are not people I want to see on TV claiming they are standing up for gun owners or have thrown back in my face as a gun owner on MSNBC.

If you think you'll get more than 20 people walking around monument circle with pistols and long guns and the media will never sniff their way back to this board and start digging you are nutz. What I just wrote will look like a white wash by comparison when the media starts digging through old threads here like they did those other guys facebook accounts and old youtube videos.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Jack , I believe one of the ideas of the walk is to show the sheep that we're not all white trash nazis .

Yes if someone digs hard and long enough they can find something to take out of context to make any and all of us fools .

That's why we'll have a letter of intent that will be distributed before hand .

That way if any media decides to spin it we'll have a rebuttal handy to refute any claims that we're anything that we're not .

 

[SavageEagle]

The media will demonize anyone for ratings. I've seen your posts too and they're not all media-friendly either.

I seem to recall a post about some teenagers coming up your driveway in their car only to see you walk out with a long gun in hand. What if they needed help? What if they'd just witnessed a murder and needed to call police? There's a hundred ways they could spin it.

I'm not saying what you done is wrong, but you seem to be demonizing people for educating others about gun rights and turning around and asking for advice about guns so they can be safe and probably pass that knowledge along.

Also, if my situation of living at home with my family and my mother is such a turn off that I don't represent gun owners, I'm sorry. My situation is a unique one and I'm sorry if it offends you. Well, maybe I'm not sorry, but that's not the point. We are all unique and to say that a group of us can't represent us all is just as arrogant IMHO.

We are all in this together and if you have better ideas I'd love to hear them.

EDIT: I had another thought that you might consider. If you feel that we as a group do not represent you, you can always stand up and join us and BE represented. That's completely up to you though.

 

[ATM]

Please talk to Hawkhavn before passing Appleseed stuff. Heck, ATM and Hawkhavn could chat on that one (ATM is on your march list and one of our Orange hats).

Thanks!

Noted. Will discuss.

 

[agentl074]

While I agree to a point, we also should be exercising our rights or we may lose them. Some people don't even know that one can even carry a long gun openly. The public has been trained by Hollywood to view firearms as being illegal....

 

[Metro 40]

In my opinion, a group of yahoos walking around downtown Indianapolis with long guns will not lead to anything positive for gun owners in general. As much as I dislike OC of handguns, I can see legitimate reasons for doing so. But long guns in the center of Indianapolis? Ah....no.

What exactly is the purpose of parading around downtown with long guns? Do you really believe that people are going to see this on TV and say, "Hey, I have a right to take my shotgun to Circle Center Mall." Walking around downtown with AR's, AK's, etc. will only serve one purpose....for the media to label gun owners as a bunch of loons, with an almost sexual fetish for their guns. Unfortunately, in some cases....I think that they are right. Do you think that the majority of citizens think that long arms downtown are a good idea, despite what may be legal?

Guns are tools, and tools have purposes. What is the purpose of an AR-15 downtown? Hunting? Target shooting? Self-defense? Please. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Education? What exactly is your message? I'll tell you what your message is....whatever the media wants it to be. Without signs clearly defining your purpose, you are just an ambiguous gang.

Protest? What are you protesting? Carrying a long gun in public is legal in Indiana. So is carrying a pistol, with a LTCH, which is obtainable by anyone with no felony record, a pulse, 2 money orders and 3 working brain cells. Indiana is one of the most gun-friendly states. If there was pending legislation to curb gun rights, I could see a protest. But again, walking around aimlessly with guns is not a "protest."

I'll tell you what this "walk" is about. Anyone who has read this board since its inception knows about Ryan Savage. Since he makes so many posts per day, new members can no longer enjoy some of his earlier fits of rage and outbursts on here. Although it seems he may have matured a (very) little, I still see an undercurrent of "Let's do this so we don't have to use our guns in the future." In a time when there are more states that mandate handgun permits for their citizens than at any time in our nation's history, he sees civil war right around the corner.

This walk is mostly about Ryan Savage's ego, IMHO. He tried this about a year ago, and due to his ranting and obvious immaturity, no one would touch it with a ten foot pole. In the interest of full disclosure for those of you who may be unfamiliar....a word of caution before you hitch your 2nd Amendment wagon to this horse.

Ryan's main motiviation is to "do something" with his life. He has stated that, due to his criminal record, he can't be a politician, nor a soldier. This is his way of "making a difference." As for myself, I don't associate with people with criminal records, and don't particularly want them representing me as a gun owner. This isn't a personal attack....these are the facts. Ask him yourself, then decide.

This is all my opinion, of course. Feel free to disagree, even vehemently. I do feel that people deserve to know what the real motivation behind this may be, as I see no discernible purpose for walking around downtown with long guns. At best, it will be a negative to see people with guns disrupting business in our state's capitol. At worse....well, it only takes one ND.

 

[El Cazador]

Oh

BOY

Do you usually fish with dynamite?

 

[USMC_0311]

Well it is not about Ryan for me. I am my own man.

 

[henktermaat]

 

[SavageEagle]

No I am not responding to that. If anyone has any issues with me they can contact me personally. I will not be drawn into a fight over someone else's insecurity. Unless someone feels there is any more posts in this thread that I should address, I'm dropping my subscription to this thread and will let it take it's course without me.

It's been interesting, but you all know how to get in touch with me.

 

[BloodEclipse]

In my opinion, a group of yahoos walking around downtown Indianapolis with long guns will not lead to anything positive for gun owners in general. That is your opinion. Sorry you feel the need to classify a group of legal gun owners as "Yahoos".As much as I dislike OC of handguns, I can see legitimate reasons for doing so. But long guns in the center of Indianapolis? Ah....no.
Again your opinion and we don't have to clear it with you. We do indeed have a legal right and a legitimate reason.

What exactly is the purpose of parading around downtown with long guns? Do you really believe that people are going to see this on TV and say, "Hey, I have a right to take my shotgun to Circle Center Mall." Walking around downtown with AR's, AK's, etc. will only serve one purpose....for the media to label gun owners as a bunch of loons, with an almost sexual fetish for their guns. Unfortunately, in some cases....I think that they are right. Do you think that the majority of citizens think that long arms downtown are a good idea, despite what may be legal?

Did you read this thread or simply jump in with your opinion?
We have been having this discussion. You can disagree as you like.

Guns are tools, and tools have purposes. What is the purpose of an AR-15 downtown? Hunting? Target shooting? Self-defense? Please. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

With out exercise, our rights become weak. What do you have to fear from citizens peacefully exercising their rights? Does it offend you in some way?

Education? What exactly is your message? I'll tell you what your message is....whatever the media wants it to be. Without signs clearly defining your purpose, you are just an ambiguous gang.

Yes education and it has already been spelled out. The media does not control all means of disseminating our message.

Protest? What are you protesting? Carrying a long gun in public is legal in Indiana. So is carrying a pistol, with a LTCH, which is obtainable by anyone with no felony record, a pulse, 2 money orders and 3 working brain cells. Indiana is one of the most gun-friendly states. If there was pending legislation to curb gun rights, I could see a protest. But again, walking around aimlessly with guns is not a "protest."

Not so much a protest as an exercise. Educating the public as to what rights they may not realize they have.

I'll tell you what this "walk" is about. Anyone who has read this board since its inception knows about Ryan Savage. Since he makes so many posts per day, new members can no longer enjoy some of his earlier fits of rage and outbursts on here. Although it seems he may have matured a (very) little, I still see an undercurrent of "Let's do this so we don't have to use our guns in the future." In a time when there are more states that mandate handgun permits for their citizens than at any time in our nation's history, he sees civil war right around the corner.

This walk is mostly about Ryan Savage's ego, IMHO. He tried this about a year ago, and due to his ranting and obvious immaturity, no one would touch it with a ten foot pole. In the interest of full disclosure for those of you who may be unfamiliar....a word of caution before you hitch your 2nd Amendment wagon to this horse.

Ryan's main motiviation is to "do something" with his life. He has stated that, due to his criminal record, he can't be a politician, nor a soldier. This is his way of "making a difference." As for myself, I don't associate with people with criminal records, and don't particularly want them representing me as a gun owner. This isn't a personal attack....these are the facts. Ask him yourself, then decide.

So you yourself have never made a mistake? You are Mr. Perfect? Just because you don't feel the need to give someone a 2nd chance, doesn't mean we all feel that way.
If you look at those of us who have signed on to do this you will see varied backgrounds and education levels.
While you believe this isn't a good idea, I feel differently. This isn't about Ryan, this is about Liberty and Freedom and I say it's about time people stand up.
When I was young I could walk down the street with a rifle or shotgun and no one said a word.
Now that we have allowed gun ownership to be defined by others, you act afraid or embarrassed to carry your gun in open public.
Yes our rights erode away when they don't get the proper exercise. With any luck this RIGHT will look like a body builder when we are done.
This is all my opinion, of course. Feel free to disagree, even vehemently. I do feel that people deserve to know what the real motivation behind this may be, as I see no discernible purpose for walking around downtown with long guns. At best, it will be a negative to see people with guns disrupting business in our state's capitol. At worse....well, it only takes one ND.

We will take precautions to make this as safe as possible, as far as disrupting I'm not sure I understand. We are simply going to walk along sidewalks. We don't plan on disrupting traffic or causing a scene.

 

[mettle]

You NEED signs, so some confused mother driving her child to daycare is not panicked; or some libtard on his way to 'report the news' doesn't take one look and have ANY avenue to twist the walk into something its not; or, for those who are not 'public speakers', so they are not cornered and forced to stumble through a bad statement; or so an antagonist does not 'get the best' of some poor backwards individual:

I am saying: you need signs that declare, state the meaning of the protest and are CLEAR to someone who has no want, nor experience or any idea WHY a fellow would want an 'Assault Rifle' in the first place.

If you do not have signs, it will not be perceived correctly, period.

I'm not going unless it is completely clear to the non-participant WHAT, WHY the walk is about.

 

[Metro 40]

We will take precautions to make this as safe as possible, as far as disrupting I'm not sure I understand. We are simply going to walk along sidewalks. We don't plan on disrupting traffic or causing a scene.

You honestly believe that 15-20 people walking downtown with long guns slung is not a "scene?" In what world is it normal for a group of people toting long guns to walk around in the center of a major metropolitan city? If it wasn't going to be a "scene," you wouldn't be doing it.

I notice that people have always had the right to openly carry long arms downtown, for decades and decades. Nobody does it. This doesn't mean that the right is in danger of being lost. People identify with others who have a reasonable and rational point to make. There is no reason or rationale for toting long guns downtown. You will not win support from non-gun owners with this stunt, and to be honest...you don't have the support of a LOT of gun owners. This board has over 4,000 members. How many think this is a good idea and are going to attend?

Walking down the street in a small town or rural area that is accustomed to firearms is not the same as parading around downtown with them. If you don't know the difference, then I can't help you. It's a social thing.

Gun ownership is only defined by others in your mind. You have rights, and you are free to exercise them. Whether or not the manner in which you exercise them is prudent, is the issue. I don't think it advances the general cause of gun rights in Indiana to mill about downtown with long arms, and I see many potential negatives. Besides, as I said, gun rights are not in as much danger as some people would have you believe.

If you are not going to carry your long gun around in public from here on out, then you must admit that this event is just a stunt. You'd be much better served with signs that state your purpose, and OC of handguns. Long guns, especially military style weapons, carry a different connotation than a handgun worn for personal defense.

 

[USMC_0311]

You NEED signs,
No we don't. Your concerns should be addressed beforehand. It's my understanding that it requires permits/money to take signs. We will have media material available. But most of this is covered in another thread.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/politics_laws_and_2nd_amendment/49980-message_and_talking_points_for_the_walk.html#post542112

I am saying: you need signs that declare, state the meaning of the protest and are CLEAR to someone who has no want, nor experience or any idea WHY a fellow would want an 'Assault Rifle' in the first place.

Its not an assualt rifle and its not a protest.

I'm not going unless it is completely clear to the non-participant WHAT, WHY the walk is about.

You can sit this one out if its not clear to you. Let the "non-participant" fend for themselves we won't hurt them.

Just my

 

[BloodEclipse]

You honestly believe that 15-20 people walking downtown with long guns slung is not a "scene?" In what world is it normal for a group of people toting long guns to walk around in the center of a major metropolitan city? If it wasn't going to be a "scene," you wouldn't be doing it.

I notice that people have always had the right to openly carry long arms downtown, for decades and decades. Nobody does it. This doesn't mean that the right is in danger of being lost. People identify with others who have a reasonable and rational point to make. There is no reason or rationale for toting long guns downtown. You will not win support from non-gun owners with this stunt, and to be honest...you don't have the support of a LOT of gun owners. This board has over 4,000 members. How many think this is a good idea and are going to attend?

Walking down the street in a small town or rural area that is accustomed to firearms is not the same as parading around downtown with them. If you don't know the difference, then I can't help you. It's a social thing.

Gun ownership is only defined by others in your mind. You have rights, and you are free to exercise them. Whether or not the manner in which you exercise them is prudent, is the issue. I don't think it advances the general cause of gun rights in Indiana to mill about downtown with long arms, and I see many potential negatives. Besides, as I said, gun rights are not in as much danger as some people would have you believe.

If you are not going to carry your long gun around in public from here on out, then you must admit that this event is just a stunt. You'd be much better served with signs that state your purpose, and OC of handguns. Long guns, especially military style weapons, carry a different connotation than a handgun worn for personal defense.

This event is a beginning. Signs change the dynamic of the event and frankly we are too small to start with a parade. As the gentleman from Ohio stated we would be denied permits anyway.
So we have to keep this event within close guidelines as to not violate some BS ordinance.
Again this is a start. I think it will not be the black eye you think it will be, but a call for others to join us. It takes good men to stand up to cause others to do so as well.