I'm tempted to get some and see how they perform in my suppressed Tavor.
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James Yeager: Pistol caliber "long guns" are stupid
- Thread starter lovemachine
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Now THAT is a nice arsenal!
The 1894 in a pistol caliber fills a great slot for the Indiana boys. Rarely need anything more than 100yds in this area (NE Indiana). One can practice with them at the indoor ranges when the weather drives you inside. One can use .38SPL for practice, too, and save some cash. If and/when one finds a place to hunt, you can take a deer with it out to 100yds. Clearly, it is a useful tool. The lever action, too, is pure joy to shoot.
Yes sir, that is the ammo. Both my son and I bought some after Tim at MAC did a review on it. Runs a little over 1900 with M&P compact, just under 2000 on a M&P full size. Compared to my 147grn fmj they hit 4 inches up and 4 right at 35 yards. They dont group well at all out of our carbines, we are talking 4 1/2 inches at 35 yards. Ejection port noise is pretty bad. Think my next experiments will be with underwoods extreme defender 9mm loads.
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IMHO there are times when a PC SBR makes more sense then a rifle SBR. The effectiveness of m193 is based on 2650+ fps. Barrel chopping doesnt help (see ballisticsbytheinch.com). If all your going to do is poke holes just shoot a 9mm fmj. The trend appears to be slanted towards heavy frangables in 556 and the AAC BLK to compensate for shorter barrel lengths. I am not convinced that these trump m193 at speed. Admittedly I am too ignorant to claim my opinion holds water.
QFT. I have 3 AR SBR's and the 9mm AR SBR is just a fun gun.
Prometheus
Master
ajdandey said:
Actually most 5.56 rounds will penetrate less walls than a 9mm, including many jhps which tend to fill with dry wall and not actually expand / expand properly.
In WWII it made a LOT of sense. There was a lot of up close fighting and there was really no such thing as body armor for troops.
In Korea the pitfalls of pistol caliber cartridge carbines became an issue and the military started phasing them out as standard issue.
Today we really only see specialized teams using them. I also think given the penchant for armor in the 21st century the days of pistol caliber subguns are pretty much over.
I don't think they are stupid as a blanket statement, I like them and I'm currently building a 7.5" 9mm AR with Xproducts new Viper rail right now.
I do realize that, all things equal, I would (and do) use a 5.56 for self defense over an 9mm without hesitation. I understand where James is coming from, it's just he doesn't lay it out very eloquently.
I don't think James ever looks at guns as anything other using them for a life or death situation and that's where he is coming from.
Personally, I own firearms for everything from self defense to plinking, sport shooting and of course just to have in my collection. I don't own half a dozen different Mosin's for self defense or for sport shooting. I own them because I think they are cool.
Sort of like my 9mm AR. Plinking and having fun are job one for it. Could I use it for self defense? Of course. Would I feel "under gunned"? Considering my EDC is a 9mm, why would I ever feel that?
Does that mean if I'm in the safe grabbing a rifle to defend the hacienda I'm grabbing the 9mm AR over the 5.56 AR? Nope. 5.56>9mm all day long IMO.
FWIW I know a guy who uses a 9mm AR with 147gr ammo and a can for home defense so he doesn't have to worry about hearing protection. Personally I have a set of electronic muffs sitting on my goto home defense rifle instead.
Prometheus
Master
So getting to a safe, opening said safe, retrieving a rifle and magazine from it isn't "luxurious"? (or perhaps you were going for ludicrous) ... but the 1 second needed to don a pair of muffs is going to be "luxurious" ?
I'm not sure about you but if I have time to access a rifle, there is a probably at least a 50/50 chance of having time to don a pair of electronic muffs.
Everyones situation is unique, or perhaps not, in mine I have a large estate with outbuildings and acreage. Be it needing to defend myself from 2 or 4 legged threats, if I have the second to put on something that will not only protect my hearing but allow me a possible edge over an intruder, I'm going to take it. Doubly so in the case of multiple intruders, rifle or pistol caliber, discharging a firearm, especially in doors, can cause permanent hearing damage not to mention the intimidate issue of screwing your hearing up so you can't hear other sounds in the short term.
If I feel the need to upgrade from a pistol (which I'll have already along with spare magazines) to a rifle while at hacienda, things just got very real... and if I don't have time, or the inclination, I can leave them sit where they are
bubububububut you have to practice to know these things you speak of. That's too much work. Id rather sit on the couch and eat my Cheetos puffsSo getting to a safe, opening said safe, retrieving a rifle and magazine from it isn't "luxurious"? (or perhaps you were going for ludicrous) ... but the 1 second needed to don a pair of muffs is going to be "luxurious" ?
I'm not sure about you but if I have time to access a rifle, there is a probably at least a 50/50 chance of having time to don a pair of electronic muffs.
Everyones situation is unique, or perhaps not, in mine I have a large estate with outbuildings and acreage. Be it needing to defend myself from 2 or 4 legged threats, if I have the second to put on something that will not only protect my hearing but allow me a possible edge over an intruder, I'm going to take it. Doubly so in the case of multiple intruders, rifle or pistol caliber, discharging a firearm, especially in doors, can cause permanent hearing damage not to mention the intimidate issue of screwing your hearing up so you can't hear other sounds in the short term.
If I feel the need to upgrade from a pistol (which I'll have already along with spare magazines) to a rifle while at hacienda, things just got very real... and if I don't have time, or the inclination, I can leave them sit where they are
JY does a good job of pissing people off. In this instance, I happen to agree with him. I'm not a collector. I haven't even been a hunter in years, though I do have a couple hunting guns. I'm a retired cripple, and the only use I have for a firearm (besides fun) is as a defensive weapon. So If I were to step up from a handgun, to an say an AR style gun (even SBR) why would I want something so big and heavy and have it fire the weaker cartridge? Even with SBR velocity a rifle round is going to hit harder. I do have a pistol caliber carbine. A lever action .44 mag. The only reason I have it is because of Indiana's stupid laws against deer hunting with a rifle round. I am more accurate with a rifle than a pistol, but if I can only use the pistol round, get a big caliber, and shoot it out of a carbine. For any serious use, I would never choose a pistol caliber carbine.
Now if you're not worried about self defense, and are just looking for a fun gun to shoot, this is where the lower cost and recoil would really make sense. I think JY tends to only think of things as everybody having the same viewpoint as him. (or they're wrong) He doesn't strike me as a guy who likes to shoot for fun or sport. I think every time he picks up a firearm, he envisions himself fighting a pitched battle against a determined enemy with the freedom of the world at stake... and he's the only guy standing in their way.
Now if you're not worried about self defense, and are just looking for a fun gun to shoot, this is where the lower cost and recoil would really make sense. I think JY tends to only think of things as everybody having the same viewpoint as him. (or they're wrong) He doesn't strike me as a guy who likes to shoot for fun or sport. I think every time he picks up a firearm, he envisions himself fighting a pitched battle against a determined enemy with the freedom of the world at stake... and he's the only guy standing in their way.
On the plus side, a pcc like the sub 2000 weighs 4.25 lbs unloaded, so it's easier to handle for someone who doesn't want to have to carry a heavy rifle.
451_Detonics
Grandmaster
I really don't believe a .223 is going to have a significant advantage in stopping power over a 9mm inside of my house. However I have shot both my 9mm carbine and an AR in 5.56 at night in darkness and a couple rounds out of the AR left my night sight pretty much gone blinding me. The 9mm was not nearly as bad on my night vision. On my property I can easily reach out to any target with the 9mm so the rifles ballistics aren't really needed.
Not trying to call you out or anything, but you might do a little more research. 5.56 will do significantly more damage than a 9mm, even with a modern self defense pistol load.
yeager makes money off views on YouTube. The more he messes with people, the more attention he gets. Reminds me of his "1911 sucks" and ".40 sucks" videos. Hes trying to ruffle feathers.
451_Detonics
Grandmaster
I didn't say it would do the same amount of damage but a well made 9mm hollowpoint such as the CorBon DPX to the chest will stop aggression just about as well as a 5.56 will. I could use my 450 Alaskan with a 510 grain at 2000 fps if causing the most damage is the goal. I have shot enough ballistics gel to know the amount of damage the 9mm DPX causes is more than adequate for the job so I leave the Alaskan in the safe.
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