Inner Circle and Looter Mentality

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

To my mind, especially if you have children this is my only option. I take that back, escape might be an option. But never surrender to MBZs. What would happen next would be worse than dying fighting.

I agree. However, Some people may take the conditions given, rather than fight and surely risk death.



There are many force appliers when we consider SHFT situations.

 

[Joe Williams]

Please Joe, elaborate for me. Just what honor can be found in taking the life of another? If you claim that honorable intent makes the act honorable I must disagree as the honor was in your intent, not in the act of taking a life.

Killing a man raping a woman is honorable. Killing a man in the service of our nation is honorable. Killing a man trying to kill me is honorable.

If you feel there is dishonor in killing, I personally think you should reconsider carrying a gun. If you have to kill someone, you'll have to go through the rest of your life feeling stained and dishonored, and it will screw you up. I do not, and never will, feel that way.

 

[jeremy]

There are many force appliers when we consider SHFT situations.

What is a Force Applier exactly?

 

[ihateiraq]

What is a Force Applier exactly?

a crow bar.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Killing a man raping a woman is honorable. Killing a man in the service of our nation is honorable. Killing a man trying to kill me is honorable.

If you feel there is dishonor in killing, I personally think you should reconsider carrying a gun. If you have to kill someone, you'll have to go through the rest of your life feeling stained and dishonored, and it will screw you up. I do not, and never will, feel that way.

Once again honorable INTENT does not make the act honorable. As far as "feeling stained or dishonored" goes, no worries. I know who I am, what I am and I am happy with it. I silenced the little voice called conscience long ago....I place little value on things that would make me feel bad about decisions I have made and things I have done/will do. Dignity and honor are troublesome sentiments that can be dangerous if too much value is placed upon them. They certainly have NO place in survival. I will ALWAYS love Jesus Christ, but when faced with starvation I will eat from the plate of Lucifer himself before I die from it. Soo, you dine on a big bowl of honor and pride, I will eat cake Oh, and probably jerky! Maybe even bacon, mmmmmmmmm, bacon....

 

[patton487]

Once again honorable INTENT does not make the act honorable. As far as "feeling stained or dishonored" goes, no worries. I know who I am, what I am and I am happy with it. I silenced the little voice called conscience long ago....I place little value on things that would make me feel bad about decisions I have made and things I have done/will do. Dignity and honor are troublesome sentiments that can be dangerous if too much value is placed upon them. They certainly have NO place in survival. I will ALWAYS love Jesus Christ, but when faced with starvation I will eat from the plate of Lucifer himself before I die from it. Soo, you dine on a big bowl of honor and pride, I will eat cake Oh, and probably jerky! Maybe even bacon, mmmmmmmmm, bacon....

Seems kinda like a contradiction. You love Jesus Christ unless your faced with death, then you will give up you faith for a plate of food. Christ said be faithful unto death and you will receive a crown of life.

I guess none of us can say with absolute certainty what we will do if faced with death. I would like to think I would keep my faith to the death. Maybe your just more honest than most.

 

[bigus_D]

Once again honorable INTENT does not make the act honorable. As far as "feeling stained or dishonored" goes, no worries. I know who I am, what I am and I am happy with it. I silenced the little voice called conscience long ago....I place little value on things that would make me feel bad about decisions I have made and things I have done/will do. Dignity and honor are troublesome sentiments that can be dangerous if too much value is placed upon them. They certainly have NO place in survival. I will ALWAYS love Jesus Christ, but when faced with starvation I will eat from the plate of Lucifer himself before I die from it. Soo, you dine on a big bowl of honor and pride, I will eat cake Oh, and probably jerky! Maybe even bacon, mmmmmmmmm, bacon....

People with this viewpoint will present, IMHO, the biggest threat to the prepaired man (family, team, whatever). This man is openly prepaired to kill me and my family to take what we have. No better than the common criminal.

I am prepaired to protect what I have. I'll do what I can to survive, but I won't be hunting down my neighboor to take what he needs to survive.

It sounds to me, sir, as if your INTENT is not honorable.

 

[Joe Williams]

Once again honorable INTENT does not make the act honorable. As far as "feeling stained or dishonored" goes, no worries. I know who I am, what I am and I am happy with it. I silenced the little voice called conscience long ago....I place little value on things that would make me feel bad about decisions I have made and things I have done/will do. Dignity and honor are troublesome sentiments that can be dangerous if too much value is placed upon them. They certainly have NO place in survival. I will ALWAYS love Jesus Christ, but when faced with starvation I will eat from the plate of Lucifer himself before I die from it. Soo, you dine on a big bowl of honor and pride, I will eat cake Oh, and probably jerky! Maybe even bacon, mmmmmmmmm, bacon....

........

 

[jeremy]

The more I read this post, the less I want to open up to the members of INGO. If you can't trust other INGO'ers in times of SHTF, who can you trust? As Jack Ryan says, thanks for the free lessons on who you are.

Yeah there are certainly a few on here that make me a little nervous for when it does drop in the pot...

 

[ThrottleJockey]

People with this viewpoint will present, IMHO, the biggest threat to the prepaired man (family, team, whatever). This man is openly prepaired to kill me and my family to take what we have. No better than the common criminal.

No sir, I will not relinquish my faith, only do what I must to survive. I think that's okay with God. Neither will I go about killing people to take what they have, unless it is the only option left. You cannot rule out any option from your easy chair in good times. Until presented with the situation, most won't be able to determine what they will or won't do. Once you have done a few things you didn't want to, in the interest of self preservation, you will begin to see a bit of what you really are capable of.

 

[shibumiseeker]

The more I read this post, the less I want to open up to the members of INGO. If you can't trust other INGO'ers in times of SHTF, who can you trust? As Jack Ryan says, thanks for the free lessons on who you are.

In many things I do I see the failure of making the assumption that just because we have common beliefs in one area, it means we have common beliefs in all or many areas. There's some folks on INGO who through their writings I've observed over the months I've been here that I think I would enjoy getting to know in real life. Maybe about one in ten regular posters. Then there are many here I can enjoy having a discussion with online, but would never really care to know them any further, though I think I would enjoy meeting. That's about half the posters. Then there are about a quarter of regulars that I disagree with on many things but in the way they comport themselves I can have respect for. The remaining percentage are people I am pretty sure I'd never ever want to know in real life and can't find much to respect online. Interestingly enough this holds true for many things I do online. The percentages are a little different for activities I do which are centered around physical activities such as SAR, but it's pretty much the same in life as online for me.


But as far as SHTF, there are only 2 members on INGO, only one of whom is a semi-regular poster, that I would welcome to my place, and both of them I've known most of my adult life. Both of them are pretty much the same people online as they are in person.

 

[Joe Williams]

No sir, I will not relinquish my faith, only do what I must to survive. I think that's okay with God. Neither will I go about killing people to take what they have, unless it is the only option left.

It's not OK with God. You say you will eat from Lucifer's plate if you have to to survive... God will either provide, and we will continue our lives here. Or he will not provide, and we move on. He has provided us with a strong survival drive to live our lives here, but we also know right from wrong. I believe God will forgive foraging and abandoned store or home, if it would even be regarded as sinful. Killing others for their supplies? Flat wrong, and we know it. I pray that if tested in such a manner, he will provide me the strength to do the right thing.

 

[bigus_D]

It's not OK with God. You say you will eat from Lucifer's plate if you have to to survive... God will either provide, and we will continue our lives here. Or he will not provide, and we move on. He has provided us with a strong survival drive to live our lives here, but we also know right from wrong. I believe God will forgive foraging and abandoned store or home, if it would even be regarded as sinful. Killing others for their supplies? Flat wrong, and we know it. I pray that if tested in such a manner, he will provide me the strength to do the right thing.

I love it when I agree with Joe Williams... makes me feel warm inside

repped.

Neither will I go about killing people to take what they have, [bold]unless it is the only option left[/bold].

I, like Joe says above, pray I have to strength to keep my faith and do the right thing. You are openly admiting that you are willing to throw yours out the window. Granted, these are good times, perhaps I'm not being honest with myself.

 

[theweakerbrother]

In many things I do I see the failure of making the assumption that just because we have common beliefs in one area, it means we have common beliefs in all or many areas. There's some folks on INGO who through their writings I've observed over the months I've been here that I think I would enjoy getting to know in real life. Maybe about one in ten regular posters. Then there are many here I can enjoy having a discussion with online, but would never really care to know them any further, though I think I would enjoy meeting. That's about half the posters. Then there are about a quarter of regulars that I disagree with on many things but in the way they comport themselves I can have respect for. The remaining percentage are people I am pretty sure I'd never ever want to know in real life and can't find much to respect online. Interestingly enough this holds true for many things I do online. The percentages are a little different for activities I do which are centered around physical activities such as SAR, but it's pretty much the same in life as online for me.


But as far as SHTF, there are only 2 members on INGO, only one of whom is a semi-regular poster, that I would welcome to my place, and both of them I've known most of my adult life. Both of them are pretty much the same people online as they are in person.

That is a pretty true and rep worthy post. A lot of the regulars I have met, in person, and most of them are pretty true to their online personalities to the events and shoots that I have been lucky enough to participate in. A few on the board are people I know I could count on in a SHTF scenario but they are ones that are either blood or people I've known nearly all my life outside of INGO. There are others, based on ASSUMPTION, that I think I could trust but that is taking a risk... because I'n solely basing this on an online personality projection.

I know enough to not trust aforementioned projects... I was more commenting on who I have confirmed who I have the potential to trust and who I have confirmed I cannot trust.

By default, everyone is a threat until they prove otherwise. You're a confirmed threat when you prove you are...

Maybe a better explanation is to relegate suspicion to everyone until they convenience you of their behavior for better or worse.

 

[Andyland]

As to the rule of law...current government; local, state and federal, are not equipped to properly enforce the millions of laws they have passed for themselves. You're on your own. Bad guys will get bold, then they will get into large groups (L.A. riots). I expect them to group up and hit stores like locusts. When the inner cities are bare, they will move out to the burbs. Your neighbors in the burbs should organize a defense, or at least a show of defense. Security is not foolproof, you just want to convince them to hit the next guy instead. This is where I hope they run out of gasoline. Then I expect they will fan out on the main highways that are passable and fan out into the countryside. My thought experiment has them breaking off into smaller groups as they try to flee the cities. Smaller groups will run into more resistance in the country, and the survivors will probably again form into larger groups for their own security. Larger groups will require more movement, migration, as local supplies run out, and they face the increasingly likely armed response of the locals.
We have no organization.
We have governments designed for nothing but to collect taxes from a docile populace. Most people can't imagine the power being out for 4 days, and your government and police are made up of those people.
Our countrymen know no history. To them, nothing bad has happened in 50 years, why should it happen now? That is like saying you have not had a bowel movement in two days, so you will never have to poop again.
You guys are just a bunch of paranoid crazy people. LOL
I wish we could go back to the 1816 Indiana Constitution, Article 7.
Take your kids to an Appleseed shoot.
Everyone in your family needs a full kit.

 

[Eddie]

The inherent flaws in the "Looter Mentality" begin with the assumption that the looter who plans on surviving SHTF/TEOTWAWKI by using his gun to take preps away from others are several.

First, in order to loot the looter has to be out moving around the city/neighborhood/countryside. Moving around looking for things to loot in SHTF makes you a big target. You aren't just passing through. In order to loot the looter has to go up to buildings/camps/houses and see what there is to loot. How many of you post over and over that if anybody comes on your land in SHTF you will shoot them. By choosing looting as their primary means of prepping the looter has multiplied the danger several times over that of the person who is just bugging out or bugging in.

Next, as is often pointed out, the average person has less than a week's worth of supplies in the form of non-perishable food and drinkable water in their home. Unless the looter is able to predict SHTF and somehow start looting in advance, who are they going to loot? They are planning to go door to door, braving the other looters while repeatedly breaking into homes where odds are that they won't find any useful preps because there weren't any there in the first place.

Third (although we can easily think of more) who is going to have useful preps? The preppers, that's who and what respectable prepper isn't going to be armed in SHTF? So now we have a looter outside, going door to door in SHTF, repeatedly breaking into places where there is nothing useful in the hopes that he will find someone who has spent their time preparing for SHTF and who is going to be intimidated by a looter!

Setting aside all of the moral questions about looting in SHTF it is an incredibly poor tactical choice to plan on getting into engagement after engagement in hopes that you will be able to loot somebody's bunker before you crap out and run into somebody better/faster/luckier than you that puts a permenant end to your looting.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Great post Eddie, rep inbound. This part

In order to loot the looter has to go up to buildings/camps/houses and see what there is to loot. How many of you post over and over that if anybody comes on your land in SHTF you will shoot them. By choosing looting as their primary means of prepping the looter has multiplied the danger several times over that of the person who is just bugging out or bugging in.

is exactly why I will not take in unexpected guests but rather let them pile up at my perimeter. An "intelligent" looter if there is such a thing, maybe "creative" is a better word, will likely utilize a tactic involving a female and a small child to approach a camp or home that is occupied. Perhaps under false pretense of needing help, food, medical care for the child, and so on to gain intel and get someone on the inside.......see where this is going? You all do what you like, just don't do it on my land Unless you have an invite of course.

 

[Andyland]

I will discuss all of this with God, someday.
But as I see it now, we are in line for a serious SHTF.
I was raised by an honorable man.
I will not do anything that would offend my ancestors.
Some of them were here in the early 1600's.
We can argue about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin.
But, it seems to me, that we are about to see a crossroads our ancestor could not have imagined, if only because of the populations have grown to this extent.
We have no leadership.
That is not, in itself, a problem among honorable men.
We have no organization!
The organization we had from 1775 until the national guard act 1906, was the first thing that HAD to be dismantled.
The second thing was the public education system, which explains why so many here have NO concept of your own history.
Learn!
Think!
We may be back to back soon...

 

[theweakerbrother]

I will discuss all of this with God, someday.
But as I see it now, we are in line for a serious SHTF.
I was raised by an honorable man.
I will not do anything that would offend my ancestors.
Some of them were here in the early 1600's.
We can argue about how many angels will fit on the head of a pin.
But, it seems to me, that we are about to see a crossroads our ancestor could not have imagined, if only because of the populations have grown to this extent.
We have no leadership.
That is not, in itself, a problem among honorable men.
We have no organization!
The organization we had from 1775 until the national guard act 1906, was the first thing that HAD to be dismantled.
The second thing was the public education system, which explains why so many here have NO concept of your own history.
Learn!
Think!
We may be back to back soon...

I owe you some rep.

 

[Gungho_1989]

This thread has been fascinating to say the least, it has covered some interesting ground and shown some of what we all fear in a SHTF scenario.
Trust is a huge thing and once lost nearly impossible to regain.

The original question was about his friend, before you paint a target on his forehead I would say give it some time. The information given was basic and the conversation may have been tongue and cheek to him, he may not even take this stuff serious at this point, lots of us have made horse**** boasts before engaging our brains, as we spoke the words we would either not act on them or that it was utter bs.

This friend in time may come to realize that this is serious **** and have a major shift in perspective.

I wanted to comment on the INGO issue as well. If we are building relationships for survival based on a screen and keyboard then were ****ing up right off the bat.

One thing that will rule in SHTF is chaos and uncertainty and knowing who your allies are going to be ahead of time may not be possible.
You may not be able to make it to where you need to go and will have to come together with whoever is handy and being able to read people at this point may be invaluable.

There are guys on here that have already stated that if within range your a threat. Harsh but it all depends on who writes the history when its all over.

I don't like to think that we will have to be absolute in all our dealings with all other people, each situation will have to be evaluated, I for one wouldn't want to put a round in a guy that was looking for a safe place for his wife and daughter, maybe he could have contributed to the group as a whole.

In my opinion anyone who speaks in absolutes now will be dangerous to be around anyhow when **** hits the fan.
Remember when were hanging out shooting the **** I may say crap just for the sake of being a smart ass about it or to bring a little levity to the conversation, judge me on this as some would have you do your friend and you may lose a valuable ally or asset in the process, (because I am a smart ass at times,)